{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/iiif/804xg9ft69/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Whit Williams oral history, 2002 May 14"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/008/original/peabody-institute.logo.large.horizontal.blue.cropped.png?1549570058","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":[" Saxophonist, bandleader, and music educator Thomas W. \"Whit\" Williams, Sr., began his career as a musician at the age of thirteen, playing trombone. After graduating from Washington High School in Raleigh, North Carolina, and serving as a paratrooper in the U.S. Army, Williams moved to Baltimore and earned a degree from Morgan State University. He taught music in the Anne Arundel County public schools from 1958 to 1995. He performed in ensembles such as the Royal Theatre Band, the Rivers Chambers Band, and Gladys Knight Band. In 1981 he formed the Now's the Time Band. He was a member of the Musicians' Association of Metropolitan Baltimore, Local 40-543. This recording contains an oral history interview of Williams by Delandria Mills. (Abstract)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":[" 2002-05-14 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":[" Williams, Whit, 1931-2020 (Interviewee)"," Mills, Delandria (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":[" English (Primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio/mp3"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Peabody Institute of the Johns Hopkins University"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["The collection is open for use. Contact peabodyarchives@lists.jhu.edu for more information."]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["https://aspace.library.jhu.edu/repositories/4/archival_objects/237655"]}}],"summary":{"en":[" Saxophonist, bandleader, and music educator Thomas W. \"Whit\" Williams, Sr., began his career as a musician at the age of thirteen, playing trombone. After graduating from Washington High School in Raleigh, North Carolina, and serving as a paratrooper in the U.S. Army, Williams moved to Baltimore and earned a degree from Morgan State University. He taught music in the Anne Arundel County public schools from 1958 to 1995. He performed in ensembles such as the Royal Theatre Band, the Rivers Chambers Band, and Gladys Knight Band. In 1981 he formed the Now's the Time Band. He was a member of the Musicians' Association of Metropolitan Baltimore, Local 40-543. This recording contains an oral history interview of Williams by Delandria Mills."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["The collection is open for use. Contact peabodyarchives@lists.jhu.edu for more information."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Peabody Institute of the Johns Hopkins University"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Peabody Institute of the Johns Hopkins University"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/008/original/peabody-institute.logo.large.horizontal.blue.cropped.png?1549570058","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/520/small/williams_photoshop.jpg?1651088026","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 3 - pims0091_WilliamsW_200205-1_01.mp3"]},"duration":1807.04653,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/520/small/williams_photoshop.jpg?1651088026","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-peabody.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/520/original/pims0091_WilliamsW_200205-1_01.mp3?1624271024","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":1807.04653,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["WilliamsW_200205_1_OHMS_20220804 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WHIT WILLIAMS: It's really beautiful. And incidentally, that particular area\nwhere that house is, now in Baltimore has been classed [sic] -- What is it? Historical.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yeah.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: So we used to say, \"No wonder it's historical.\" [Laughs]\nThelonious Monk stayed there for a week. We got out of our beds, and Thelonious\nMonk occupied our room for a whole week.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Wow.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah. We walked down to Reisters[town Road] end on Pennsylvania\nAvenue, and Monk -- [Laughs] Let me tell you. Monk is the only person I've ever\nknown -- And I have a friend here in Baltimore. I don't know whether you've met\nVernon. Vernon's been ill. He had a couple of back operations. You know where\nBuddies [Pub and Jazz Club] is?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Oh, okay. Well, it's right up the street from Peabody really, in\na way. But Vernon was there -- Well, anyway. Ray was a guy who got Monk to come\nto our house, and he stayed there for a whole week while he was appearing at the\nTijuana. The Tijuana Club in Baltimore was like -- I'm trying to think of --\nWell, something like later on, Birdland became known in New York. All of the\nperformers would come there. All of them.\n\nI got a chance to see -- Stuff is blowing away out there. Bud Powell stayed\nthere; Charlie Parker used to come there. Sonny Rollins, Clifford Brown, James\nMoody when he had the eight-piece band. Wow, it's just so much that takes place\nand passes on.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=0.0,120.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DELANDRIA MILLS: Right. Yeah, I said wow when you mentioned on the phone the\nother day that you were seventy. Not out of disrespect, but I just lost a friend\nof mine at thirty-five.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And you're twice his age, and that's just a beautiful thing\nbecause he was a talented musician, a beautiful person. I mean, it's because of\nhim, when I was pre-med and an undergrad, I was walking through the halls, and I\nheard some jazz coming from his room. And I knocked on the door, and I asked him\nif I could just listen. He said, \"Listen? You got a flute in your hand.\"\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah, you're going to play. Yeah, that's nice. [Laughs]\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And he invited me to come in and play with the rest of this\nlittle quartet at the time. It was funk, but it was still for me.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah. Yeah.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: It was close to jazz. And he was like, \"Well, one day, you're\ngonna do what I want you to do. You're going to play.\" And I was seventeen.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah -- see, look, that's the word right there. This is what I\nsay to a lot of young people, old. I don't care who it is. I say it to anybody.\nI've been into music since I was -- I played my first professional job when I\nwas thirteen, the trombone. I was a trombone player. [Laughs]\n\nBut anyway, what I found is that each person has to decide how you're going to\nspend your time not knowing how much time you have. And that says a lot right\nthere. [unclear] A lot of times when I get a chance to talk to students -- we\ntalk about jazz improvisation or whatever it is -- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=120.0,240.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a lot of time people will\nsay, \"Well, what would you do here, what would you do here?\" The first thing,\nthe first thing I will say to any person who wants to play: \"You listen to your\ninner voice. Your inner voice. Not mine. Because I'll only tell you if you're\nlistening to your inner voice.\"\n\nAnd, of course, you can look around you and try to interpret what you have seen.\nTry to put it in some type of perspective. And when I say what you've seen, what\nyou've seen in other people in terms of what their aspirations are and how they\nworked with it, and this type of thing.\n\nAnd then with my interest in astrology, which I was introduced to in a very -- I\nuse the word strange, it might not be strange, but anyway -- I was introduced to\nastrology in 1951 when I first went in the military. I enlisted in the\nparatroopers. I wanted to become airborne.\n\nNow, here's another example. I've had a chance to think about this. All my\nfriends, -- actually, I've always been the kind of person who's been friends\nwith everybody. Doesn't have anything to do with your interests. I don't even\nget into that. Each person selects what they do. I have very good friends who\nare musicians and all who I grew up with. And what I'm talking about here is\nthat most of them were just amazed that I had decided to go and volunteer to\njump out of an airplane. Now, first of all, they say, \"Why would this nice\nlittle guy --\" because I was a nice person. I mean, I think I'm still a nice\nperson. And I believe I learned very early that the key to any success is --\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=240.0,360.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"this is just from my personal perspective -- that you have to get in touch with\nyour spirituality. You have to get in touch with your own spirituality. It's\nyour personal contact with that divine force.\n\nYou may look up on the wall, and you see that sign up there? \"Divine order.\"\nWell, I learned that from a very good friend of mine that just passed this year,\nRoy McCoy. I was introduced to him.\n\nBut now I'm going back to the decisions that I made to go into the airborne.\nBecause it's all related to anything else when a person makes a decision to do\nwhatever. I had friends [saying], \"Why are you doing that? Why do you want to\njump out of an airplane?\" Something just told me to just do that. And that's the\nway I've always been, and I encourage my son to do the same thing.\n\nDo what you think your inner voice tells you to do. And through God, through\nprayer, you can do anything you want to do, if you have an idea of what your\ninterests are. But what happens so often, a person says, \"Well, you play music\nso, man, I'm going to come here, and I'm going to find out what you're doing.\"\n\nOh sure, I'd share anything. Anything that I have learned about music, I share\nwith everybody. But what I've found -- and I've really, I could tell you some\nexperiences I've had in reference to giving that would make you laugh. It makes\nme laugh just thinking about it. I've never charged anyone for lessons. Now that\ncomes as strange to a lot of people, especially people who teach. It sounds a\nlittle odd. But that doesn't make any difference to me how odd it sounds.\n\nSee I've had some experiences -- I could tell you about, in this room I have a\npiano in there. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=360.0,480.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"There are a lot of little experiences I could share with you in\nreference to how that divine force always gives you more than you give. Oh, in\nfact, you can't give the amount that you will receive. That's my particular take\non it.\n\nAnd it's nothing big. It doesn't have to be. Little small things make me smile.\nSmall things. Because I think the small things are really the big things. And\nit's true when you talk about what you put in your body in terms of how that\naffects how you think. It's super important.\n\nMy wife and I have been married now for about forty-two years, and I think\naround thirty-three or thirty-four years ago, we changed our way of eating. Now\nyou might say, why would I change my way of eating? Growing up, my mother's\ndiabetic, my father, my uncles. High blood pressure, that type of thing. You\nknow what that is. High cholesterol. So I became interested in that. And then I\nwas introduced about -- oh wow, this is 2002 -- this is about thirty years ago\nnow. Maybe twenty-nine or thirty years ago, I was introduced to a lady who was\nan under supervisor to my wife, whose father was, at that particular time, he\nwas like ninety years old, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=480.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and his wife was eighty-nine years old. Now this lady\n-- we'll say this girl at this particular stage -- and all, was thirty-six years\nold, and her mother was eighty-nine. She had a brother who was a doctor who was\nfifty-two and another brother was sixty. Now you check that level there.\n\nBut anyway, the point I'm making is that she would only tell us how she grew up,\nand all her brothers had grown up the same way, watching what they eat. She's\nreally the one who talked me into all of these things that I'm always talking to\npeople about. Nutrition and how important it is to really expand your life and\nmake you feel better.\n\nWell, my personal interest was more or less centered around what I could do not\nto be in the condition that I had a chance to see my mother in. So, I was\ngetting all this information. Oh, well, this girl went on to talk about how she\ngrew up with her father and mother, how her brother, she and her brother, and\nshe was the youngest one. What they would eat -- they had stopped eating all of\nthe things like bacon, and things like that. I won't get into specifics. But\nanyway, then you might say, well, why stop eating that? Well, when you consider\nall of the cholesterol that congregates in your veins and arteries -- And I know\nthat's what was happening to my family. Yeah, it was happening. High blood\npressure, arteries and veins fill with debris. That's what's clogging up the\nveins. I call it debris. They have other words for it. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=600.0,720.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So that's how I got into it.\n\nWell, anyway, when I'm talking to a lot of students about jazz improvisation,\nsome of them might say, \"Oh, why is he talking to me about what I eat?\" And they\nlook at you -- And I say, \"Well, okay. I know why you're looking at me that way.\nYou're wondering why you come here to listen to me tell you about what you eat\nand how important it is in terms of how you feel like practicing your\ninstrument.\" And I never restrict it to music. How you feel like studying your\nmath, or your social studies, or whatever discipline that you're studying. It\nhas a tremendous effect on it.\n\nAnd I get into it about water and all that. How important water is in the body.\nAnd I give them the name of some books that they can read. Like several, what I\ncall them, real giants of people who helped to inform people about the\nimportance of what you put in your body in terms of how it helps you to think,\nhow it helps you to sleep at night, and all these different things. A lot of\nthem say that this is just necessary. It's necessary regardless of what you\nplan. If you plan to be a doctor -- It doesn't make any difference what you plan\nto do. You're going to need energy to do it, and if you're in bad health you\ncan't do it.\n\nSo, all I'm talking about is basically how important it is to start practicing\nvery early, this. And all you can do, incidentally, is tell people. You can't\nmake anyone do anything. I can't make myself do it. I know what I've wrestled\nwith, with some of the foods. So, you reach a point, you say, \"Wow, man.\" ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=720.0,840.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"At\nthat particular time I was around thirty-nine or forty -- in that area,\nthirty-seven and thirty-eight. And you see your mother -- in my particular case,\nI had a chance to see my mother who was going through all these things because\nshe was diabetic. She would have kids who lived in the neighborhood -- not the\nparents, because the parents wouldn't go to the store and get these things for\nher -- she would have the kids, and she'd pay them. So I said, \"Wow, man. I just\ndon't want to do that.\" And I used to talk to my sister. In fact, my sister's\nvery ill right now because she could not back away from the custom of doing what\nwas being done in my family. She just couldn't do it. And well, you know, it's\nthe thing.\n\nAnd I'm not saying this is going to help you live any longer because you still\nhave to be careful when you approach an intersection, because somebody might run\nthrough a red light. So that's all important also. [Laughs] But this I think is\none of the most important things in the world, is your contact with that spirituality.\n\nAnd number one, you must love yourself. And I think sometime in our religious\nbringing-ups [phonetic], as I express it, there is not enough emphasis put on\nloving yourself first. It says love your neighbor as yourself, but the point is\nvery well carried there: that you must first love yourself before you can love\nyour neighbor. And you might say, what does this have to do with jazz and\nbecoming a doctor or whatever? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=840.0,960.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Well, first of all, if you don't love yourself,\nyou're going to have all these types of things that happen -- and I'm not saying\ndepression is brought on primarily by a person's idea of what they are about\nindividually. I'm not saying that. There are some inadequate type of elements\nnot going into the system which can contribute to depression and all these\nlittle strange feelings that people have.\n\nBut you first love yourself, then you can love other people, your neighbors,\nyour children. Then you can love other people. And when you can love other\npeople, you're able to be less judgmental. And this is something I've been aware\nof that I've worked on for years and years and years. Because I had a couple of\nexperiences that made it very clear to me that it just doesn't pay [unclear]. I\ndon't mean if someone came up to me and say, \"Well, hey, man, this is a\nstickup.\" Oh, obviously I'm going to honor that. [Laughter] I'm not stupid, you\nknow. But you first have to make contact with that spirituality.\n\nNumber two -- love yourself, your neighbors, eat the right food, and treat your\nneighbors as well as treating yourself the way that you like to be treated. And\nfrom there I think everything else takes place. I don't care what it is. It\ndoesn't make any difference what it is, who you talk to. It doesn't make any difference.\n\nYou have to reach a point where you feel so strongly about that that I think --\nWell, let me put it this way: Once you feel strong enough about it, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=960.0,1080.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"then you're\nable to listen to your inner voice. Now you've been doing this all along, but\nthrough your observation of seeing other things take place, you say, \"Oh wow.\nYeah, something told me to do that.\" You've heard these expressions. \"Something\ntold me to do this, but I didn't do it.\" That's the inner voice talking to you.\nSo, you get on with practicing what you want to practice.\n\nIn reference to the music thing, I personally think, and I've learned this\nbecause I didn't always think like this -- When I first started playing, I was\nplaying trombone. In fact, I made my first professional job --professional in\nthat we got paid, that's what it means -- and what was really funny about this,\nthe first job I ever played, there were five of us. Each one of us was paid\nseven dollars, and I've forgotten the amount that it came to, but it was more\nthan just seven dollars. And I remember we threw the other part away, out of the\ncar window, so all of us would get the same amount of money.\n\nWe talk about this, those who -- now, there are only two of us still living --\n[were] on my first initial job.\n\nAnyway, during that particular time, I got a chance to hear some of the very\nearly records that Charlie Parker had made. I had listened to the Duke Ellington\nOrchestra and a lot of those players during that particular period. And I\nstarted listening to the alto saxophone because that was my primary instrument,\nor lead, I'd say three years before I started playing clarinet. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=1080.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I kept on\nplaying trombone, and then I started playing saxophone.\n\nAnd I was very fortunate in high school to have been in the high school where I was.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Which high school?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: I went to Washington High in Raleigh, North Carolina. And\nincidentally, we had the top football team [laughter] and we had the top band.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Who were your teachers over there?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Oh, wait just a minute. Now let me tell you about my teachers.\nI'm very glad that you mentioned that. Well, when I first entered high school\nthere, Mr. Leon Thompson -- Now Leon Thompson, when he came to our high school,\nhad graduated from the great Eastman School of Music. I can think of so many\nthings that he made us aware of for a while. I can never even put it in words\nbecause his whole concept of music -- now check this -- his whole concept of\nmusic was vast. I mean, he was not just restricted to the European concept of\nmusic. He had a lot of appreciation for our culture -- the Black culture -- in\nterms of how it had developed and to where it had come --\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: He was White?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: No, he was Black. And incidentally, he went on to become, from\nwhat I understand, the first Black assistant conductor of the New York\nPhilharmonic Orchestra. He was in charge of one of the junior orchestras that's\nrelated to the New York Philharmonic Orchestra.\n\nHe's really from Petersburg, Virginia, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=1200.0,1320.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and he graduated from Virginia State\nCollege. But as a teacher, he was not so much into jazz, but he did not frown on\nit. See, this is the thing I've found. In the past, so many teachers -- Black,\nWhite, green, purple -- who do not understand some of the principles of teaching\n[jazz] because they can't play it, have kind of pushed it aside towards an\nemphasis on European music. And so, my particular take on this, and when I hear\nstudents say -- I think I mentioned this to you -- say classical music, my\nquestion is are you referring to European classical or American classical? Jazz\nhappens to be the only classical music that had its beginning here in this\nparticular country, so I always make that distinction. In fact, I've done this\nwith elementary kids. They have to know the difference. They have to have some\nappreciation for their own music. Because if we don't appreciate our music, who\nelse is going to appreciate it? No one.\n\nPeople who write the history can give you any slant on anything that we think\nof. I just think about how we've been misled in reference to religion, misled in\nreference to many other things. I just learned about two weeks ago about a city\nin the state of North Carolina where I was born. I had never heard that in\nhistory. This came from a Black historian who talked about Wilmington, North\nCarolina. Used to be the largest city in North Carolina. And at one particular\ntime, I think it was in the '20s, I've forgotten the exact date, I made note of\nit, that Wilmington, North Carolina, as far as its political set up, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=1320.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was\nprimarily run by Blacks. And a group of Whites came in and destroyed the whole\nthing. Here I am seventy years old learning this about the history. I had never\nheard that.\n\nWhy? Because it wasn't printed. No one had researched to find out that\nparticular information. This is what I challenge all of you young people to do.\nTry to find out the history because I'm sure that there's so much of it now that\nstill hasn't been told about what has taken place. See everyone, you have some\nidea of the fact that we were brought here in bondage and in slavery and all of\nthat, but the perpetuation of the idea that most of us know about will continue\nuntil we know the history and we can talk about the history.\n\nIn fact, there's this particular guy that I mentioned, this Black historian, who\nteaches at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. And that was just to\nkind of inform, but anyway, the main point here is that you have to know\nsomething about your history because if you don't, who you going to learn it from?\n\nNow what does this have to do with jazz? Oh, it has everything to do with jazz.\nBecause what we learn is that in many cases, some of the things -- It's kind of\ninteresting, you know. I've thought about this many times. There are several\nsongs, and I won't get into names, I just kind of challenge you to check this\nout. There are several songs that have been used in the Christian churches that\nwere bar songs in Europe, that were sung in bars in Europe back in the olden\ndays. Now I'm just going to leave that up to you to just check it out, because\nI'm certain of what I'm talking about. They are sung in the churches as\nreligious songs. Now why did I make that particular statement? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=1440.0,1560.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We were taught --\nwhen I say we, not all Blacks, not all Whites. This is no indictment against any\nracial groups. We are talking about mankind and what's most likely to happen\nwith mankind. As you know, Rome fell, as powerful as it was, and it fell from\nwithin. It wasn't all these factors that came from without.\n\nWe have to know the history. But check out those songs, they're right in some of\nthe churches. [Laughter] They were bar songs.\n\nBut anyway, the point I was going to make is that many of us were taught that\njazz was the devil's music. A lot of people were victims of this. So far, I\nwasn't taught it to that particular extent. However, I never played what I\nconsidered a jazz composition in my church. In fact, I had the experience of --\nlet's see, this is several years ago -- of playing right here in a Black church\nin Baltimore, the first time I ever played jazz in a church. And I was about\nsixty years old then. Now here's the other part that's kind of strange. I had\nnever played jazz in a Black church. I had played jazz in a White church.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: At this time, when you were sixty?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Oh, no, no, long before then. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=1560.0,1680.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520/transcript/39226/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now these are just some of the\nfacts right here at least from my little, small perspective. But anyway, as far\nas jazz being the devil's music, my take on that is simply this: The devil only\nenters the picture from within the person who's doing the talking or making the\nassessment. The assessor determines who the devil is, and it comes from within,\nnot without. So, if someone says that's the devil's music, they speak from\nwithin their conscience in reference to how their perception is as far as the\nmusic's concerned. That doesn't have to mean that you have to believe it.\nBecause here you are -- you're being taught to listen to your inner voice. So\nwhen you go to the piano, you look at the piano, you see, assuming it's an\neighty-eight-key piano, \"These are eighty-eight keys. I can do what I want to do\nwith that.\" Here's an opportunity for me over here -- if a person needs help and\nI can give this person help, I can help this person or either I can walk away.\nThe same way it is with that piano. If you select to play the notes that some\nother person who says this is the devil's music, you have nothing to do with\nthat. That's the devil from their inner perspective, so don't let people impose\ntheir junk on your conscience. Because that's what it is: junk, frankly.\n\nSo, you have to come from a much deeper perspective than just having someone\ntell you what something is. This is what we've been led to believe. In fact,\nreally when you get into studying something about the beginning of the Christian\nreligion, the Muslim religion, the Catholic religion -- well, the Catholics are\na part of Christian -- When we say the Christian religion, the Judaism and Islam --\n\n[END PART 1]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117520#t=1680.0,1800.0"}]}]},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 3 - pims0091_WilliamsW_200205-1_02.mp3"]},"duration":1806.02776,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/521/small/williams_photoshop.jpg?1651088035","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-peabody.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/521/original/pims0091_WilliamsW_200205-1_02.mp3?1624271025","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":1806.02776,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["WilliamsW_200205_2_OHMS_20220804 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WHIT WILLIAMS: The research part, studying the beginning of Judaism, Islam, or\nthe Christian belief, we have some of the same factions going on. Really. Now\none person I love to listen to speak about it from a historical perspective is\n[Reverend] Ambrose Lane [Sr.]. I want to mention his name because he's quite an\nunusual historian in many respects, Ambrose Lane. And there are many other\nscholars also. I just happened to mention his name because he's more locally\ncentered, on PFW [WPFW radio], and some of the things around.\n\nSo, what it is -- we have a choice, in reference to music, of looking at that\npiano or looking at the violin or looking at that flute or looking at that drum\nor that saxophone, or any instrument, and speaking to that divine person the way\nwe perceive it to be, not the way someone else. And I feel very strongly about\nthat because I see so much idiotic type beliefs being put out there for kids.\nAnd they get turned around by what someone says.\n\nNow here's the thing -- not all students do this, because some students are\nfortunate enough to have parents who tell them the same thing that I'm saying,\nthat I say to my kids, or I say to other students I've had a chance to teach or\nbe around. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=0.0,120.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And many of them I learned more from them than they learned from me,\nfrankly. That's the way it is.\n\nSo, you make a choice as to what you want to do with your instrument. You call\nit what you want to because after all, in the -- I think, this is my belief --\nin the final analysis, that relationship between you and that supreme being is\nwhat counts. Not what someone in a building who you might go and visit on\nSunday, Saturday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday -- That's really\nirrelevant. If it coincides with what you believe, great. Really, that's just\nwhere I am with it. It's that contact that you have spiritually with that divine\nforce, and you don't have to go anyplace incidentally.\n\nThis is what some people -- \"Oh, I have to go here so I can do this.\" No. No,\nyou don't have to do that. You can just find a chair, a bed and just lie down\nand just go within and just go through different types of exercises, which is\nsuggested [unclear], which might have not a thing to do with religion. See, we\nget into religion, and we get into spirituality. My particular take on it is the\nspirituality, because there you're talking about what relationship you have with\nthat supreme being. Not what relationship you have with some church or some\nsynagogue or some mosque or whatever.\n\nAnd the ultimate -- frankly, as I said before, loving yourself and treating\nother people the way you want to be treated. That's the ultimate. And you can go\nfrom there and do anything you want to do. But that's what it's really about.\nIt's not about how many hours you spend up in some room practicing. Sure, you're\ngoing to have to practice in order to get your skills. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=120.0,240.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We know that, but that's\nnot it.\n\nThere are levels of consciousness that go beyond my music, [that] go beyond\nbeing a doctor or a lawyer or an Indian chief or race car driver or a guy who\ncome here to pick up the trash. There's just as much spirituality in that as any\nprofession in the world. And this is what I think we on earth just have to get\nin touch with. But see what's happening, what has happened in mass -- not\neverybody, but enough people for us to be living in the type of world we're\nliving in now that accounts for it -- is that one side is dumbness, frankly.\nThat's what I call it. One side is stupidity that's passed on from generation to\ngeneration about \"This job is more important than another one,\" and sure, if you\ndo this, you can make more money. But now, if it's about money and you think\nyou're going to find happiness, all you have to do, you can turn on your\ntelevision and listen to people who have millions of dollars and listen to what\nthey talk about. I don't know what that's like.\n\nThat's why every day I pray for divine order. Now, divine order simply means\nthat you're asking that that divine force give to you that which will make you\nhappy, and that which is best for you. In my case, that which is best for my\nfamily; in your case, that which is best for your family and your friends around\nyou; that which is best for the world, all people, green, purple, brown, polka\ndot, whatever. The same law [unclear]. And this is what you pray for. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=240.0,360.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So it\nmeans that, sure, I know what I would do right now if I had $60 million. You\nknow what I would do if I had $60 million?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Give it away? [Laughs]\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Well actually, yeah, in a way. Do you know how I'd give it? I'd\ngive it away by, right here in Baltimore, I would set up a school that would\nhave basically four disciplines. I call them disciplines, schools of thought:\nmetaphysics, obviously; health; money management; and, of course, the fine arts.\nThose would be the four schools. And the kids who I would want to have as\nstudents would start around one year old, and I'd want the parents before\nthey're one to bring them there for at least one day a week where I could spend\ntime with them or the school, whatever, could spend time just having them\nlisten. If it's no more than thirty minutes. Then they would enter the school at\ntwo years old. That's what I'd like to do.\n\nAnd maybe, if I had a hundred million dollars, I would do it. And that's my only\ndream. Now I mentioned the word divine order. If that's best for me to do, if\nit's best for me to get this -- what did I say, a hundred? I'm sorry. I\napologize. Two hundred million. I got to stop thinking small. See what I mean?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: [Laughs] Oh, definitely.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: I started out with six -- oh, wow, man. See, I'm a product of the\npast, thinking small. Three hundred million [unclear]. But that's what I would\nreally like to do. And right at this moment I have in mind ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=360.0,480.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"seven or eight people\nwho I already have in mind who will be part of that school. And one of the\npeople who will be part of that school is your teacher down there. Okay? I won't\ncall any names. [Laughter]\n\nAnd that would be my dream. So now when I say divine order, if each person\n[unclear] this, basically what you're saying is \"Thy will be done.\" It has\nnothing to do with whether you're coming from an Islamic perspective or Catholic\nperspective or Baptist perspective or Judaism perspective. It doesn't make any\ndifference. Human beings and any other type of religious thoughts that we can\nthink of. Because regardless of religion or whatever, unless that particular\nconcept which is perpetuated involves thinking, that involves freedom for all\npeople, it's a joke. I don't know what name you give to it.\n\nNo one is better than anybody else. And yet you have so many people who are\nvictims of just being here. So I see a guy coming to pick up my trash, how am I\ngoing to figure that he's in a better -- I mean, in fact, I couldn't tell the\ndifference between whether he was a trash man when I go down to the funeral home\nto look at his body, or her body. How can I tell what he did? You can't. We all\ncome as humans and that's the way we leave, spiritually.\n\nSo, what does this have to do with jazz or becoming a doctor? It has everything\nto do with it. Because the people who I think who really approach it from a\nhumanistic perspective are just better people. I don't know care what you're\ninterested in. It doesn't make any difference. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=480.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"This is what I tell anybody\nbecause this is what I have learned, and I feel very strongly about what I'm\nsaying. It's not just words. I just hope I can continue to be around to pass on\nthe word to a lot of people.\n\nBecause I've learned more, as I said, from the students in many cases than they\nlearned from me, really. Because some of these things I've seen, I've seen some\ntalent that you could never even express. I had an experience in 1958 of seeing\na kid take a piece of paper just like I'm going to do. He takes this paper --\nthis is like a fifth-grade boy -- he takes this paper and looks into my face,\nholds his hand to the side, and never looks at his hand or the paper, and\nlooking me right in my eyes, in a matter of like, I would say less than a\nminute, turns this paper around and there's my face right on that paper. Now\nwhere do you suppose that came from? You don't think his parents taught him\nthat, do you? That has to come from that almighty. That's not out in there in\nthe sky, incidentally. He's right here now, right where we are. You don't have\nto go anywhere to experience.\n\nBut anyway, what I'm talking about is talent. I've had the experience of seeing\nwhat I know of right in that situation -- One of my former students who is now\nfifty-four years old (I taught him in elementary school), he had a brother who\nwas classed \"special\". This kid, he couldn't learn anything according to the\nschool. What I'm talking about right now has more to do with the downside of\nmany one-sided educators. Frankly, I feel very strongly about it. This\nparticular kid -- he's a man now, obviously -- just went on his first job ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=600.0,720.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"about\na little over a year and a half ago. Now, his parents passed away, and his\nbrother, who I just mentioned who I taught, someone suggested to his brother to\nhave him taken and have an assessment done on him psychiatrically,\npsychologically, whatever. And he did, and they took him to Sheppard Pratt\n[Towson psychiatric hospital], a [unclear] institution, and they did a study to\nfind out this kid is a genius in math. He was dyslexic, that's what they discovered.\n\nSo here's a kid who has lived -- well, hopefully he'll live many, many years --\nbut he's lived over fifty-some years thinking he was stupid. He wasn't stupid,\nthe people who made the assessment were stupid. That's the type of thing, that\nreally strikes me right here in my heart because I've seen this happen to a lot\nof kids who cannot do this as some other kids do.\n\nAnd what does this have to do with jazz? It has everything to do with it.\nBecause I find some kids who can come in and pick up the instrument and learn to\nget these inflections that we talk about, that little inner voice that\n[humming], and so and so and so. Who might be special -- \"Oh, he's having\nspecial difficulties with English, he's having difficulty with math.\" The kid's\nillustrating something some of the kids in math could not do to save their\nlives. These are like special talents. And in many cases, some of these kids are\nbeing swept under the rug. That really tears me up tremendously. So, what I'm\ntalking about is the downside of so many people who are in education with super\nnarrow minds, and its effect on a lot of the kids who could be geniuses in certain areas. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=720.0,840.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the same thing holds true with music -- it doesn't matter what area\nyou're talking about.\n\nSo, if a kid is classed this, if they get that label on them very early, okay,\nin our society everybody shoves them to the side. But that's not what I think it\nshould be, and I'm sure you got millions of other people who feel just like I\nfeel. I'm not the only person who feels like this. Millions of people feel like this.\n\nBut as far as playing the flute, [laughter] or playing any other instrument, I\nthink you have to just try, if you possibly can, to find out what approach you\nwant to use. I know in the beginning it's very important for a baby to see\nsomeone walk. \"Oh, that's what it is.\" So, the baby sees the parent walk, or the\nbaby hears the parent talk, and they emulate that particular gesture of\nwhatever. Then they say, \"Well,\" in [their] mind, \"One day I'll be able to walk\nand talk.\" So [unclear] important what the parent says when they talk because\nthe kid's going to remember that. There's a thing with the human mind, it is\nsaid, that memorizes things long before they become conscious enough to be able\nto express it. And I have been part of at least one or two experiments with kids\nto say I know it's true. I wouldn't try to prove it to anybody because I've\nreached a point, I don't got to prove anything to anybody because you can't.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=840.0,960.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But once you've had enough experience, as they say in some of the books, they\nwill know in time. Hopefully, it won't be too late. There are so many parts of\nthis thing. So, you listen to other people playing flute. You listen to the\nHubert Laws, the James Moodys, and there are many other flute [players]. We're\ngoing to talk about it later, some other flute players that they don't talk\nabout who are just phenomenal flute players. There are so many. So, have you\nthought about what particular approach you want to use?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: [unclear] The approach. I thought about it since we talked,\nactually. I'm thinking about going to listen to some Louis Armstrong, and I\nmentioned Freddie Hubbard the last time we spoke. But listening to a person\nmakes me want to listen deeper to where they got that from. Because it started\nwith Roy Hargrove. That kind of lead me to Nicholas Payton, and Payton led to\nFreddie for a while, and then that led me to Lee Morgan and Booker Little, but\nthen I came back to Freddie and started going in another direction, to Louis\nArmstrong. Because it would just be little bitty things -- because I listen to a\nlot of Billie Holiday, and the inflections that I hear or the nuances that I\nhear -- I was watching Hello Dolly because I like musicals. And Louis\nArmstrong's on there. And I thought for a minute that I heard a little bit of\nBillie in there that I had just listened to in another recording. So I'm\nbeginning to hear that the things that I really like in people's playing, I\nthink it comes from a little bit of Louis. So that's my next move. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=960.0,1080.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'm going to\nlisten to him a lot more and pick up stuff from him and see where that takes me.\nSo, I'm going to say Louis Armstrong, but not in that strong of a sense --\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: No, I understand. Yes.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: -- but the vocabulary. Louis Armstrong, Kenny Garrett, for some\nof his edge, that modern touch.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah, Kenny's bad.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yeah. And so I think I'm going to stick with them for a little\nbit. And Joe Henderson has a few little lines that I really like, like in\n\"Joshua\" and \"A Shade of Jade.\" So, I think I'm going to start with maybe four,\nand then of course, Gary [Thomas], for that bare approach. It's not even a\nvocabulary. It's an approach.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah. You can't put it in words.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yeah.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah. I understand that.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Top four, maybe five.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah. The main thing is to see if you can come up with something\nthat will distinguish your playing from another person's playing. Because\nreally, you listen over and over, [unclear] you'll find most players play the\nsame notes, but it's how they select to, when they select to play the notes\n\nYeah, it's the thing -- Some people select to double up the time at certain\nplaces in a song. Now I don't know whether that's something they formally\nthought out. As you know, jazz is supposed to be created, it's supposed to come\nspontaneously. So that could be just a feeling. I suppose the ultimate is if you\nget a rhythm section ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=1080.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that makes you feel comfortable enough to explore, then you\ndo what you feel like you want to do when you feel like you want to do it. It's\nkind of an individual type of thing. But I do know the more you do it, the\ngreater chance you have of getting better. [Laughs] What do they call it,\npractice? [Laughter] So it's a thing like that. But do you have any questions?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: For you?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah. That I can't answer, most likely. [Laughs]\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I'm thinking. Your first teachers, and maybe further than that,\nyour parents, and then what teachers kind of got you going.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Well, actually, from my parents, one of the main things I learned\nwere some of the very early things that I mentioned to you about how important\nit is to love yourself and show appreciation for other people. And I didn't\nlearn anything about music from my parents. Neither one of my parents were\nmusicians. In fact, basically, my musical environment really taught me, because\nI grew up in an area where there were two people that had played on Lionel\nHampton's band and other bands around.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: This was in Baltimore?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: No, this was in Raleigh.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Oh, okay.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: I grew up in Raleigh. Actually, I was really born in the country\nnear Warrenton, North Carolina. Yeah, I was in the country with the chickens and\nall that.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: What is your birthday?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: December 22nd, 1931. Back in the olden days. And let me say\nwhat's really funny about this. I'm sitting here saying back in the olden days,\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=1200.0,1320.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and I remember when my grandfather was seventy, eighty, and ninety-seven.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Ninety-seven?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah. I had three grandparents who lived to be a hundred, but my\nmother only lived to be almost seventy. And I think I mentioned to you before,\nthat was my motivation for getting into this information pertaining to health.\nThat was my motivation right there. My father passed away on his eightieth\nbirthday, sitting in the chair, smiling. I said, \"Wow, that might be real nice\nto go that way.\" Incidentally, I happen to feel that when I do pass, I'm going\nto get an experience which is far better than any experience I've ever had. In\nother words, what I'm saying to you -- I don't have this fear right now of\ndying. And I suppose, well, there are different things that people learn at\ndifferent times in their lives. What I'm saying to you right now at seventy,\nsome kid might say and they're fourteen. So it's not a thing where you have to\nreach a hundred years old where you think, \"Oh, well [unclear] --\" No, it's not\nabout that. Because I just happen to believe that some kids are born and they\nmight be ten years old and be far advanced in many areas than adults who may be\nseventy or eighty.\n\nSeriously, I've seen some things at least, have touched me like -- [laughs].\nPeople have all kinds of talents. And it's that divine force that gives them\ntalent. Gives all of us talent. It just so happens that the school system is not\ndesigned to deal with all of the many talented people that have this type of thing.\n\nSo, I grew up in basically a musical type of environment. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=1320.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Where we lived when we\nmoved to Raleigh, I was almost ten years old. It was about five blocks from a\ncollege, so by the time I was fifteen and sixteen I could go in and sit in a\nsection with college players when I was fifteen, sixteen. This is St.\nAugustine's [University] in Raleigh. And there were some guys there who played\n-- terrific players. Well, that was part of my music environment, and when I\nwent into high school, I had the gentleman I mentioned before, Leon Thompson,\nand he was just great as far as I'm concerned. Really great.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Who was your first music teacher?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Actually, let me put it this way. I'm glad you asked that. My\nfirst music teacher was really one of my neighbors. One of my neighbors was\nreally my first music teacher, but it wasn't teaching in the sense that a lot of\nstudents experience the effects of a teacher now. It wasn't like that. It wasn't\nlike I'd go to his house once a week and I'd practice. No, it wasn't like that.\nI was a very good friend of his brother. His brother played trumpet, and his\nbrother was taking trumpet lessons, and he was teaching me the trumpet. And I\nwas taking saxophone lessons from his brother, and I was teaching him the\nsaxophone, the younger brother. I was teaching him. So we had a band and part of\nthe fun was playing different instruments. I had been playing trombone all along.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=1440.0,1560.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DELANDRIA MILLS: So, this was a young neighbor? This was a friend, basically.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah. Because during that particular time, a lot of the players\nwho had college type training in instrumental music were White players, and they\nweren't teaching Black kids. And then a few years later, this wasn't true,\nbecause they were.\n\nThere have always been players of all kinds of colors who've taken into\nconsideration what we're dealing with here in America by way of discrimination.\nAnd that God principle works in and through all people. And this is what I think\npeople have to just continually, constantly think about. Regardless of what we\nsee, that God principle works in and through White people, green ones, yellow\nones, polka dot ones, Black ones, brown ones. The principle is there, because\nall we have to do is just go back to thinking about the success of the\nUnderground Railroad. We didn't just move through like that. No. Well, that was\nall a part of that, hey, what is that word up there?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Divine order.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Divine order. That's the word. As they say in the Lord's Prayer,\n\"Thy will be done\", and I used to know it in Islam also. I really did. I used to\nknow it in Judaism. [unclear] They got all kinds of words for it, but a rose by\nany other name is still a rose. So that was really my early experience and then\nthe thing that was really interesting to me as far as preparation --\n\nWhen I went into the army, I enlisted to become a paratrooper, and after I had\ngone through that particular part, I got a chance to go in the band on a\ntemporary basis. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=1560.0,1680.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521/transcript/39227/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I was in the band with Gene Harris. Yeah, Gene Harris, he\njust recently passed, and several other guys. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm moving it.\nI'm sorry. I'm up here playing around with the microphone. [Laughter]\n\nAnd that was incidentally during the time when his name was not Gene Harris. A\nlot of people don't know that. His name was Gene Haire. You heard of the Three\nSounds? Gene Harris and the Three Sounds?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Well, we were in the military together. But anyway, the music\nthat I was asked to perform in the audition, three of the selections were music\nthat I had in eleventh grade in high school. And it was kind of funny -- when\nthey're asking you to play something to pass an audition that you already know.\nThat was kind of interesting, really. That was kind of special. I've laughed\nabout that many days.\n\nSo, I was in and out of the band on temporary duty because that's the only way I\ncould be. See, bands, during that time in the military -- well, down where we\nwere -- were not as bands are today, where you go in as bands person, a\nbandsman. That would be your MOS [military occupational specialty], job\nclassification. That's the way it is now. You go in a bands person. I've\nforgotten the name of it now. Well, my particular classification was infantry. I\nwas primarily taught to kill people. That's what it's about. Now can you dress\nit up and say it any other way you want to. Our training was centered around\nthat. And as the 82nd Airborne Division member, Third Battalion. Incidentally,\nThird Battalion 505 was the first Black --\n\n[END PART 2]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117521#t=1680.0,1800.0"}]}]},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 3 - pims0091_WilliamsW_200205-2_01.mp3"]},"duration":1816.03265,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/522/small/williams_photoshop.jpg?1651088042","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-peabody.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/522/original/pims0091_WilliamsW_200205-2_01.mp3?1624271026","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":1816.03265,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["WilliamsW_200205_3_OHMS_20220804 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"WHIT WILLIAMS: Third Battalion 505 was located, I want you to check this out,\n6.7 miles from the white First Battalion and Second Battalion on the post of\nFort Bragg, here in America, land of the free, home of the whatever. [Laughter]\nNo, this is what happened right here in this country. And when people talk about\nbin Laden and whatever his name is, we've had bin Ladens right here in this\ncountry. These are the bin Ladens we have to be fearful of. They've done more\nagainst us as Blacks and against the country. Because as things perpetrated\npeople remember, so we just don't walk, walk around blindly looking for bin\nLadens. That wasn't bin Laden down there in Montgomery, not Birmingham, as far\nas for the bombing of the church. All these others there's an atrocity that have\nbeen performed. But anyway, that's the way it was at Fort Bragg.\n\nIt did not change. I went in 1951. It did not change where we were until\nEisenhower became president. I think it was in 1952. Then they started more\nintegration. Now, I'm speaking about the Army. Now, in certain parts of the Navy\nthey were automatically integrated in terms of living in the same quarters\nbecause they couldn't afford to build two ships going down the same ocean, one\nfor Black and one for White. That's why they were integrated.\n\nAnyway, during this particular time, I will never forget this particular\nexperience. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=0.0,120.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"A very good friend of mine who had, in 1952 had started his first\nyear at Howard University, and I came here to Washington to be part of the\nparade celebrating President Eisenhower. And we went to this little restaurant\nin Washington, which you can literally see from the Capitol, and I went in and I\nordered one hot dog and one hamburger. My friend ordered one hot dog. And the\nguy who came to the window that says, we were inside the restaurant, and the guy\nthat came to the counter says one hot dog, hamburger walking, and one hot dog\nwalking. Now do you know what that means? It meant that we could not eat it there.\n\nHere I'm standing there with 82nd Airborne Division clothes on and it says guard\nof honor, 82nd Division is the Guard of Honor of this country. I'm standing\nthere in this particular uniform, getting ready to participate in a parade\ncelebrating the inaugural, inauguration of President Eisenhower, and can't eat\nthis hot dog and this hamburger in this restaurant. Within the sight of the\nnational capital of this country.\n\nThese are some of the experiences.\n\nBut despite that, I was very fortunate in the military. I've been very fortunate\nperiod. But I'm sure I attribute it to divine order. Because I know some other\npeople who, in my opinion, and that's just my assessment. It doesn't have to be\nright because I'm saying it, who were not so fortunate. You know, this type of\nthing. These are some of the things that I've seen during my little span of time\nso far. Hope I can get some more days and years, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=120.0,240.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but that's the way it is. So\nthat's basically it. You have some other questions that I can't answer.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Other musicians. You mentioned Thelonious Monk.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: And Bud Powell? Yeah. Well, okay. Let's see. That was around\n1956, it was either '56 or '57. Sometimes I remember the exact year. I think it\nwas like '56. Around '56 when all of the, I won't say all of them, a great\nmajority of the real headliners used to come to the Tijuana Club on Pennsylvania\nAvenue here in Baltimore. Of course, I had just come here in the Baltimore area\nin 1954. Well, Thelonious Monk came to the Tijuana, and a very good friend of\nmine, Ray Tipps who was working there as the house band. And during that time it\nwas characteristic for a lot of the clubs to have local guys who played the\nintermissions as they were called. That time when the main stars would be off.\nWell, Thelonious Monk didn't have a place to stay, and, of course, he couldn't\ngo downtown and live in the hotel. So, Ray Tipp invited Thelonious Monk to our\nhouse, and we lived at 2022 Madison Avenue. 2022 Madison Avenue. Oh,\nincidentally that area, that block has been classed historical. We were saying\nit was historical then, just jokingly. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=240.0,360.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And Monk was there. In fact, Ray and I\nmoved out of our room so Monk could have our particular room. And Monk was there\nfor a week. And we used to walk down to a Chinese restaurant on Pennsylvania\nAvenue, it was called Rice's Inn, and get Chinese food. And we all, we've talked\nabout this off and on for years. Thelonious Monk was the only person I had ever\nseen [eat] three orders of egg shrimp foo yong. Now, I used to eat one. This is\nlong before my health days of eating. He ate three. Now you'd have to realize\nhow rich they are.\n\nAnd he was just a real, just ordinary type person. We talked about -- Well, he\nwas born in North Carolina. Thelonious Monk was born in North Carolina, in an\narea not too far from Rocky Mountain. Well, that was it, and that went on. In\nfact, it was far more important to us years later after we'd had this experience.\n\nThen sometime not too long after that, under the same type conditions, Bud\nPowell stayed at our house also for a week. There's one person here in Baltimore\nnow who remembers it very well, and that's Vernon Welsh. Vernon plays down at\nBuddies on Charles Street. He was there. He saw it. And two of the other guys\nwho were there in the house have passed on, Thomas Jordan and Kenneth [unclear].\nSo it was kind of interesting.\n\nAnd also during that particular time there was a whole lot of activity ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=360.0,480.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at clubs\nlike the Casino and the Comedy Club. I remember once, and this was kind of\nunusual. It might not have been unusual, just that I remember this. The Benny\nGreen sextet was appearing at the Casino, which is right the next block up from\nthe Comedy Club. And Benny Green had a little White tenor player, terrific\nplayer named Billy Root, fantastic player playing with him. Sonny Stitt was\nleaving the Comedy Club on a Sunday night, and Charlie Parker was going to come\ninto the Tijuana Club on that Tuesday night. [Laughter] That's just how much\nactivity that I remember. See, I don't go back to the days that some of the guys\nwho were grown up here and were much older than I am. But I can speak about the\nones that I know about.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: What made you come to Baltimore?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Well, okay, I'll tell you what. There were two reasons. When I\ngot, before I came back, before I got out of the military, while I was in the\nmilitary, I met several guys who I became very good friends with who had dropped\nout of Tennessee State because they were drafted. During that time, they would\njust draft you out of college. Say if you were in the middle of a semester and\nyou got your orders, you'd just go. That was one reason I enlisted before I went\nin. I spent one semester at St. Augustine, I enlisted because I didn't want to\npay the money and be called out in mid-semester. They were doing that then\nespecially to a lot of people whose parents were not affluent. You know, these\ntype of things. But anyway, in response to your question. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=480.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What was the question\nyou asked me?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Oh, what made you come to Baltimore?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Oh, what made me come to Baltimore. Okay during that time, I had\nan aunt who lived in Baltimore, and also had a very good friend who I had been\nfriends with for years whose name was Vernon Welsh, I just mentioned. So it was\na matter of like, following through on the friends you met in the military, or\nfollowing through on the friends you had known from kids. So I went with the\nolder, with the group I had known more about. And that's why I came to Morgan\n[State University], too.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: So you went to school at Morgan?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: I went to Morgan. Yeah, I graduated Morgan.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Oh what was the name of that group? You said Gene Harris and\nthe --?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Three Sons. Yeah, Three Sons.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: So, were you playing jazz before you went to the military?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yes because you mentioned that your first job at thirteen. But\nwhat made you, when you were done with the military, when you came to Baltimore,\nwhat exactly did that Pennsylvania Avenue experience do for your playing?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Well, okay. Okay. During that particular time, okay, let me put\nit this way. I was getting $135 from the VA [Veterans Administration] as a\nresult of having gone in the military to continue in school. And it was really\nmuch better than we realized it at that particular time. Now this is what I say.\nI was getting $135 a month, and I was paying $24 a month to live in a beautiful\nplace where we had, in the house where we were living, a grand piano, living\nroom, dining room, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=600.0,720.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that was there, right at 2022 Madison Avenue.\n\nAnd as far as jobs, almost all the guys were working down at clubs, as we used\nto say, all up and down Pennsylvania Avenue. All up and down Baltimore Street on\nthe Block. I used to work on the Block. You know, for strippers and things like\nthat. And that was like a way of life. Some people really raised families\nplaying on the Block, just playing music in clubs. A lot of them didn't have\nbass players.\n\n[ADJUSTING TAPE RECORDER]\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Hopefully one day they'll have wireless.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Oh, they will. They probably have it now. Just trickle down to us\nas consumers. All kinds of automated that make a difference. \n\n[PAUSE]\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=720.0,840.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Houston. So hot and humid.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Humid. That's what will get you. \n\n[PAUSE]\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Pennsylvania Avenue.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Pennsylvania Avenue, they had all kinds of clubs up and down\nPennsylvania Avenue. I'll just name some of the ones I remember. Comedy Club,\nCasino, Tijuana, Sphinx Club, wow. Oh, they used to have -- it wasn't on\nPennsylvania Avenue -- they used to have the Red Fox, where Ethel Ennis was\nperforming. Great singer, Ethel Ennis. Really great singer. This is when I came\nhere. Later on, there were other clubs that came about during that time. I spent\nsome time doing a little sub work for some of the guys in the band at the, down\nat the Royal Theatre.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: The Royal Theatre? In what way?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Well, they had all kinds of shows. In fact, you just kind of name\nthe Black acts, and they were there at the Royal Theatre.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: So was that primarily run by Blacks?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Well, it was run by Blacks, but it wasn't owned by Blacks.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=840.0,960.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DELANDRIA MILLS: Who were the guys that were kind of running?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Oh, the guy that had the band when I was there was Tracy McCleary.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Okay.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Tracy McCleary. Yeah. Tremendous talent, and he's a great\nhistorical significance.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: He is.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Oh, yes, he is. That's right.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: What did he play?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: He used to play saxophone. He also played various other instruments.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: How long did you stay there?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Well, that was like, okay see I was mostly like a sub because I\nwas in school. So if someone showed up and couldn't make it, I'd go in and sub\nfor one or two guys.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: When would you say that the scene on Pennsylvania Avenue, the\njazz scene, started to calm down and then decline?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Well, I would say basically during the Civil Rights movement. And\nI'm sure there are people who might disagree with me who've been here longer\nthan I am. See, I'm not a Baltimorean. And I was told that if I should come\nhere, and I really mean this, I was told by a very good friend of mine, if I\nshould live here for 175 years, I would never be here a Baltimorean. [Laughter]\nI'm not kidding. Really. So that would be from my little perspective, my response.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: When did the decline, when you were saying, when the decline?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Oh, the decline. Actually, right now I really don't know, but I\nknow a whole lot took place during the '60s, during the riotous moment in the\nlate '60s. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=960.0,1080.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I know that definitely had a tremendous impact on business and such.\nAs they use the term, quite a bit of unrest.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And when did the Royal Theatre close its doors?\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: I don't remember the exact date, but that's very easy to find out\nbecause that goes back long before my time. You talk to some of the guys who,\nwow. There's one person who I would really like you to talk with. In fact, if\nyou haven't, I will set it up so you can. Mel Spears. I would really like you to\ntalk to him. Mel is from Baltimore, and he's grown up in Baltimore. A terrific\nplayer, and one of the nicest people in the world. Really. So I will definitely\ncatch up with him. I think it will be very helpful. Because he can give you a\nslant that I could never, because I'm not from Baltimore.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: One last thing. And what made you change and not go to New\nYork? Because it seems like every jazz musician --\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Well, let me tell you. Okay. In 1957 I had a chance to go on\nLionel Hampton's band. 1957. I had a band at the Brown Jug in Atlantic City in\nthat song.\n\n[PHONE RINGS]\n\n [INTERRUPTION]\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: -- advanced glaucoma. He can no longer drive. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=1080.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That's really\nsomething seeing that. Someone who's been independent all of his life. Now, in\nreference to driving and things like that, he can't do it. Yeah, let's see, we\nwere on --\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: 1957. You got the opportunity to play with a band.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No. No. Well, that wasn't so much about New\nYork. Actually, it was just about, I had an opportunity to go on and audition\nfor Lionel Hampton's band. It was a very good friend of mine, a guy that I just\nmet, I won't call his name. But anyway, this particular guy was in his last year\nat South Carolina State, and I was in my last year at Morgan, that summer.\n\nSo we went down, we heard that Hampton had two guys leaving the band. So we went\ndown and auditioned, and we met Gladys Hampton, Hampton's wife. We didn't meet\nHamp. And what was the guy who was playing lead alto? I'm trying to think of his\nname. Anyway, we made the audition, but the reason I was laughing, we went down\nthere just playing around. Because I knew I was going to go back to college that\nparticular, that following or the coming year, the coming fall. This was in the\nsummer. And the other guy who -- I started to mention his name -- the other guy\nwho was in his last year at South Carolina State, said, \"Let's just go down and\nsee if we can make it.\"\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=1200.0,1320.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I was principally playing alto and he was playing tenor. We went down, and it's\nin Atlantic City, and we went down and auditioned, and the lead alto player at\nthat particular time told us he liked our playing, just give him a notice, come\nback and let us know when you'll be able to start. Asked us whether or not we\nwanted to do it or not. So coming back up Arctic Avenue in Atlantic City, this\nguy says to me, \"You know, I don't know, man, I think I'll go on and do this.\"\n\nThe funny part about this is it's just like you meet someone and you all are\ntalking, and you say, yeah, let's go and do this. Now I knew I wasn't going to.\nEven if I had passed it, I knew I wasn't going to. But I thought he was just as\nserious as I was. That's the point. That's what I say to people. You have to\nmake up in your mind what you want. You can't let other people influence you. If\nthe message comes to you from within that you do this, great. The message said\njust go down and audition. I knew I wasn't going to do it. I had no problem. But\ncoming back up Arctic Avenue, he was saying, \"Man, I think I'm going to go and\ndo this.\" And he went on and did it.\n\nNow some years later, he said it was the worst decision he had ever made in his\nlife. I still have his clarinet book here. No, he went on playing, but a lot of\nother things took place after that. But every time I think about what we talked\nabout, we passed the audition, but then what decision he made right at the\nmoment. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=1320.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I've had a chance to talk with him several times many years later.\n\nBut I just never had any aspiration to go to New York. And I used to go to New\nYork and visit my cousins and all of that. I just never had any interest in\nliving in New York. But that's just my little thing. Other people love it,\ngreat. I think it's great. You know, follow what you think you should do. The\nthing about it is most of the people I know -- No, I won't even say this now. I\nwon't even say. [Laughter]\n\nWell, I shared my thoughts.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I do thank you for your time.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: Hey, is there any way I can get a copy of this interview?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Oh, yes.\n\nWHIT WILLIAMS: She said, in reference to me, why I didn't put my hand over my\nheart. So I said, \"I was Black in the military, and I figured I served my\ncountry. I got an honorable discharge, and I really lived up to what I suppose\nany American should do by way of serving. As far as me putting my hands on my\nheart, I didn't think that was necessary.\" That's just my particular take on things.\n\nSo she continued to ask me, she just kind of pursued it a little further. And I\nsaid, \"Well, you know what, I don't know whether you are familiar with this or\nnot. When I was in high school, most of my teachers --\" and of course I learned\nthis after I was out of high school -- \"most of my high school teachers had\nmaster's from northeastern universities.\" Why did they have master's from\nnortheastern universities, like Columbia and whatever? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=1440.0,1560.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"They had it because the\nstate of North Carolina would pay tuition for out of state people to go to\ncollege in other universities rather than going to universities in North\nCarolina. And she was not aware of this. She was young. She didn't know. So she\nsaid, \"What?\" I said, \"Yeah.\" They were paying Black teachers money to go\noutside the state to go to college because they couldn't go in the state of\nNorth Carolina. And I said, \"You asked me why I don't put my hands over my\nheart. I'm always bringing back the theme.\" I said, \"That's one reason I don't.\"\n\nI said, \"Another reason I don't,\" and I went on to tell her about the incident\nthat had taken place in 1952 where I was just standing in my uniform, guard of\nhonor, 82nd Airborne Division, all of this whatever, and I can't even eat a\nsandwich in a shop that's in the sight of the [U.S.] Capitol because I'm there\nfor the inauguration of President Eisenhower. I can't eat a sandwich, a hot dog\nand a hamburger. So you want to know why I don't put my hands on my heart.\nThat's another thing. I just don't. This is true.\n\nStates provided money for Blacks to pursue advanced degrees outside of -- I know\nNorth Carolina did. I can speak about that because I know about it. The amazing\nthing about it, they were paying them to go to college that was better in many\ncases. I don't mean in all cases. No, no. Because they have. But that was the\nsystem. That was in response to why I didn't put my hand on my heart like\neverybody else. I used to do things like that.\n\nBut to not put my hands on my heart, well, I just felt that way. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=1560.0,1680.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522/transcript/39228/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don't care\nwhere it was. And I still do it. I was there in the military when they had Black\ntroops. I was in the Third Battalion '05, and the Third Battalion 05 was like\n6.7 miles from the main post of Fort Bragg because we were Black. We were doing\nthe same duties as the other troops. And something else to make a distinction.\nThe Third Battalion was mostly all Black. However, the First Battalion and the\nSecond Battalion -- okay, the First Battalion was primarily White soldiers. The\nSecond Battalion was basically Mexicans and Spanish-speaking soldiers. That was\nthe discrimination that was employed in the military by our country. \"Home of\nthe brave\" and all that business.\n\nSo I think people have to know about this. They have no idea about what actually\ntook place. If they didn't read it in the book, perhaps it didn't take place. In\ntheir country, it didn't. But most of the stupid things are not written in\nbooks. If you're fortunate enough to talk to the people who were there, that's\nhow you get it.\n\nBooks out there, the information furnished in books in many cases, are put there\njust like the concept of marketing. Certain materials presented in a certain\nstyle get accepted by a certain press, certain publishing companies. So you have\nto take into consideration this. Certain people can't have certain factual\ninformation because the company won't take it on. And, of course, this just\ndidn't start out. No, it's been around ever since publishing companies. But at\nleast I can express what I've learned.\n\n [INTERRUPTION]\n\nThomas Whittaker Williams, born December 22nd --.\n\n[END OF INTERVIEW]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44181/file/117522#t=1680.0,1800.0"}]}]}]}