{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/iiif/8c9r20sf4q/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Gary Thomas oral history, 2002 May 6"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/008/original/peabody-institute.logo.large.horizontal.blue.cropped.png?1549570058","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":[" Gary Thomas is a jazz saxophonist and flautist from Baltimore. He was a member of Jack DeJohnette's Special Edition band and has worked with many notable jazz musicians. Thomas was the director and chair of Jazz Studies at the Peabody Conservatory from the department's founding in 2001 until 2017. In this second interview with Delandria Mills, Thomas discusses his work as a faculty member at Peabody and his career as a touring musician. (Abstract)"," Low audio levels on source media. (Physical Description)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":[" 2002-05-06 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":[" Thomas, Gary, 1961- (Interviewee)"," Mills, Delandria (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":[" English (Primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio/mp3"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Peabody Institute of the Johns Hopkins University"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["The collection is open for use. Contact peabodyarchives@lists.jhu.edu for more information."]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["https://aspace.library.jhu.edu/repositories/4/archival_objects/237527"]}}],"summary":{"en":[" Gary Thomas is a jazz saxophonist and flautist from Baltimore. He was a member of Jack DeJohnette's Special Edition band and has worked with many notable jazz musicians. Thomas was the director and chair of Jazz Studies at the Peabody Conservatory from the department's founding in 2001 until 2017. In this second interview with Delandria Mills, Thomas discusses his work as a faculty member at Peabody and his career as a touring musician."," Low audio levels on source media."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["The collection is open for use. Contact peabodyarchives@lists.jhu.edu for more information."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Peabody Institute of the Johns Hopkins University"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Peabody Institute of the Johns Hopkins University"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/008/original/peabody-institute.logo.large.horizontal.blue.cropped.png?1549570058","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/501/small/Thomas_Gary_photoshop_jpeg.jpg?1651085633","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 3 - pims0091_ThomasG_200205-1_01_edited.mp3"]},"duration":1760.65306,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/501/small/Thomas_Gary_photoshop_jpeg.jpg?1651085633","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-peabody.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/501/original/pims0091_ThomasG_200205-1_01_edited.mp3?1624270992","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":1760.65306,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["ThomasG_200205_1_OHMS_20220804 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"DELANDRIA MILLS: This is a follow-up interview with Gary Thomas, interviewer\nDelandria Mills, on May 6th. So, Gary, what's happened since the last time we\nspoke? You've had the faculty concert at Paloma's Cafe in downtown Baltimore,\nwhich I heard was very successful.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Did we do that before? Afterwards? Really?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: When did we do the first interview?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Maybe you're right. [Laughter] Did we do the faculty concert\nafterwards or before that?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: It's possible we did it before. I think Paloma's was before the\nlast time we spoke, but we didn't get to talk on that.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Okay. We didn't talk about it.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yes.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yes. Because you asked me about somebody saying something about the\nconcert not really happening.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Right.\n\nGARY THOMAS: So what did you want to know about it?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I was a little surprised at your reaction when you heard that\nsome of the students were not impressed, or I guess you could say a little\ndisappointed in the faculty concert. How do you respond to that?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I thought we talked about that. [Laughter]\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: We did.\n\nGARY THOMAS: We did. I thought we talked about it on tape. You sure? Did you\nlisten to it?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: You're right.\n\nGARY THOMAS: You didn't listen to it.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I did. [Laughter] Yeah, we did. But I think there were some\nthings that happened since the last time we met that you were really, that you\nwanted to get put on the record.\n\nGARY THOMAS: About the concert?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=0.0,120.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Or something that happened after the concert, or something that\nyou noticed with administration or something.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, no. Actually, what happened? Oh, got the CD. We got the CD\nback. And I just had a conversation this morning with one of the students who\nheard the CD.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Okay.\n\nGARY THOMAS: And this person said that they thought that the CD was really,\nreally good.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Oh, good.\n\nGARY THOMAS: So, you see there will be conflicting opinions about the same\nthing. That's why it didn't bother me so much when I heard that somebody else\nfelt as if it wasn't like, the greatest thing that they ever heard.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: How have the faculty members or other people that work at\nPeabody reacted to the faculty concert at Paloma's? What type of reactions did\nyou get afterwards?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, did you see the [Baltimore] City Paper?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No.\n\nGARY THOMAS: You didn't see the review in the City Paper?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Oh, it was a really, really good one. It was last week. They gave\nthe concert a really good review. One-page article. You heard about it?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I heard something about Greg being called --\n\nGARY THOMAS: [Laughter] I don't want to talk about it, and I don't think he\nwants to hear it either. [Laughter] Yeah, but I'm just thankful that they were\nreally positive about the concert. People who write sometimes, they want to\ndescribe everything too.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Definitely.\n\nGARY THOMAS: We had a big band concert last week.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: How's the reaction after the big band come across?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I thought it was pretty successful. I got the comment from someone\nelse that said that it didn't really swing. But then, I don't know if that\nperson really knows what swinging is, and for me it doesn't really matter.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Was that someone inside or outside of Peabody?\n\nGARY THOMAS: ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=120.0,240.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don't want to be specific about it. I mean, it doesn't really\nmatter, but, you know, I thought the concert was a success. I mean, everybody\nplayed as well as they could play. And I don't think we were as prepared as we\ncould have been, but we don't rehearse as much as some of the other ensembles\naround. Basically, that's a problem with the time, or the time that I have to do\nthings because I have to do all the ensembles. I have to make whatever time\navailable for something like that that I can. And that was Thursday morning\nrehearsals, and sometimes we had sets of rehearsals off and on. But I don't have\nthe time to spend with -- I mean, how long is PCO [Peabody Concert Orchestra] rehearsal?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Twice a week for three hours. And PSO [Peabody Symphony\nOrchestra] three times a week for two hours.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Right. Yeah, so that's six hours a week. We basically spend about\nan hour and a half rehearsing. I think the saxophone was rehearsed. They did\nsection rehearsals every weekend. You were in the saxophone section. I don't\nthink I remember seeing you at all the section rehearsals.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I was there. I couldn't help but be there.\n\nGARY THOMAS: At the section rehearsals?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: They were after my improv class.\n\nGARY THOMAS: I don't think I stuck around for some of those.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I probably had to go to my locker to get my tenor flute.\n\nGARY THOMAS: And then you came back maybe an hour later?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No. Soon.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. [Laughs]\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I always came back.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Okay. Yeah, but the saxophones, it was obvious they had done some\nextra work, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=240.0,360.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and the brass sections weren't quite there. But considering\neverything that's gone on and the time for preparation and everything, and the\nfact that we didn't have all jazz studies majors in the band, I thought it\nturned out well.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And I wanted to ask you a little bit more about your childhood\nstudies with your music teachers. You mentioned Kirby --\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: -- and a couple of others. Can you tell me more about your\nearly teachers?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Early teachers. Mr. Kirby was the first.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Okay. Where is he now?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I believe he's at Southern High School. At least that's what I\nthink. I know the last I heard from him he was teaching there.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: What kind of influence did he have on you?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, he was the kind of person that would drive you. I don't know\nif it was something that I was meant to do, or if it was because of him, but I\nknow when I got in the band, I started practicing a lot. I did it because I\nreally needed to do something. My mother told me I needed to do something after\nschool so she wouldn't put me to work. But somehow, once I got there, I found I\nreally liked it and I spent a lot of time practicing.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And how long did you study with Kirby?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, I didn't really take private lessons with him. They have\nthose band method books and things like that so we worked out of that. Plus, he\nwas a clarinet player. And he was one teacher, and he's running a band full of\nforty students, so he doesn't have time to spend privately with each student. I\ncan't remember much about the way he taught, but it must have been effective\nbecause there are a lot of other musicians around who came through his program.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=360.0,480.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Like who?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Greg Grainger, for one; Gary Grainger. There were a bunch of guys\nwho played in this band called Charlie and Company. George Gray. All these\npeople were from Cherry Hill. There were a couple Burns brothers, like Howard\nBums who plays around some. He's a saxophone player. His brother Andrew played\ntenor saxophone too.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Okay. Who did you study with after Kirby?\n\nGARY THOMAS: When I was in junior high school I had a flute teacher who actually\nused to study with Bonnie Lake. Her name's Chisona Thornton [phonetic] And she\nlived in Cherry Hill also.\n\nWhat was that look about?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Chisona?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah, Chisona.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: She was a flute player?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Why? She couldn't have been a flute player?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No. She was your band director?\n\nGARY THOMAS: No, she was just somebody -- I can't remember how I met her, but\nsomebody recommended her to me because I wanted a private flute teacher.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Oh. Okay.\n\nGARY THOMAS: And I remember going -- I think I had half hour lessons with her\nevery Saturday.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And so, of all your teachers who would you say was the most influential?\n\nGARY THOMAS: You know, it's weird because ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=480.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'll say that the person who was the\nmost influential for me was Whit Williams. But he wasn't really like a private\nteacher -- just be around him sometimes and listen to him talk and hear his\nphilosophy on life and music was just enough. I know Raul [Soot] interviewed\nhim, and after he interviewed him, he said that he could see that I'd probably\nbeen around him. And I don't know what connections he's making, but I guess when\nyou run into people, they always have some kind of effect on your life, and Whit\nprobably had the biggest [effect] on me as far as the music goes. And then also\njust in general.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: When did you meet him?\n\nGARY THOMAS: It might have been in my junior year in high school.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And he's a saxophone player?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. He plays saxophone and flute, clarinet. He does a lot of\nshows, and he's a really good saxophone player too. I heard him at some\nimprovisational things. I don't know how to describe it. He has like a really\nunconventional way of playing which I really respect for a person who's been\naround Baltimore with the whole organ club thing.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Organ club?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, a lot of the clubs around here -- Baltimore is basically\nknown as an organ town.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I had no idea.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. Well, there are a lot of places up and down Pennsylvania\nAvenue, over on North Avenue -- there was a Sportsmen's Lounge, and there was an\norgan jam session there on Monday nights. I don't know if it still happens, but\nthere were a lot of organs, a bunch of organists.\n\nAnd I remember going to the ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=600.0,720.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Sportsmen's Lounge, and then later on leaving the\nSportsmen's Lounge and going to the Barricades on the same night, and they would\nhave a jam session that would happen even later. Organ all over the place. Which\nis not a bad thing -- I love organ. But the players tend to be a little more\nconventional, and Whit had another way of looking at things, which I respect.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: His approach to improvisation was different.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah.\n\nAre you going to sleep? I'm boring you.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No. [Laughter]\n\nGARY THOMAS: What then? You're trying to think of another question. Well, I'm\ngoing to sit here until you do. You want to know any more about Peabody? You\nwant to know any more about the weather?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Definitely Peabody.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Okay.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Baltimore, too. I know we talked a lot about that the last\ntime, and how it influenced you -- just the players in the area that influenced\nyou. You only grew up in Cherry Hill, right?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. I think I spent most of my life in Cherry Hill. Let's see.\nSpent a little time in West Baltimore, then I moved to South Jersey -- I'm\ntrying to remember what year that was now. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=720.0,840.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But I spent most of my life until I\nwas twenty-six, twenty-seven in Baltimore. Moved to New Jersey and stayed there\nfor about eleven years.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: In New Jersey?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. South Jersey. And then I came back here two years ago.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Just two years ago.\n\nGARY THOMAS: It probably seemed like I lived here because I spent a lot of time\nat Peabody.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Right.\n\nGARY THOMAS: And the thing is that I spend so much time -- I'm sure you've seen\nme there at midnight sometimes and two o'clock in the morning. But I spend so\nmuch time over there that people just think I live in the school.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I do remember you moving, or saying you were moving your stuff\nfrom Jersey, and that whole process you were going through.\n\nGARY THOMAS: See, you should have written a list.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I thought you had to.\n\nGARY THOMAS: This is supposed to be an interview, right?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yeah. But you said you had some things that had gone down, and\nI definitely want to follow up.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Life.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No, but you said that as though something's happening, and I\nwant to talk about that.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. But you're supposed to ask me questions, and then, maybe you\nasking questions, all those things will come out.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Okay. Since the concert, have you realized that people's\ntreatment toward you has changed?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Not really, because I haven't really been around school that much\nsince. I've been in the same places where I always spend my time -- in the jazz\nstudio -- and nobody but the students who study in the program come around.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yeah. I noticed that your name wasn't downstairs in the office.\nDo they have any plans on where the jazz department is going to be ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=840.0,960.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"next year\ninside the school?\n\nGARY THOMAS: No. Well, so far, they've designated a space that is supposed to be\nfourteen by twenty feet.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: For the whole jazz department?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. There may be a couple of practice rooms. I'm not really sure.\nI mean, even right now where we are, the place is overflowing because the jazz\nstudio is where eight teachers give private lessons, or at least we try to\nshuttle in and out of there to teach private lessons. Then we also teach classes\nin that room, and we run ensemble rehearsals in that room, and it's also a\nstorage room for everything that we own.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: How big is the space that you have now?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, what is that? I haven't [checked], but it's still not big\nenough. And then we just don't have enough space. We don't have enough separate\nspaces. And the tendency is that when we sort of fan out -- I mean, Steve\nBaxter's idea was that we would be all over the conservatory in different places\n-- but the problem is, whenever we wind up next to somebody, they say we've got\nto move because they can't take the noise next to [them]. And this even happened\nin the jazz studio. You know, the jazz studio right now is our designated space\nfor the program. I mean, it's the only space that we have that we can call the\njazz study space. And we've gotten, or at least some of the students have been\npushed out of there. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=960.0,1080.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because I remember a little more than a month ago, the\nsaxophone section was doing their regularly scheduled section rehearsal, and the\nschedule is on the door too. And the Peabody vocal ensemble was rehearsing in\nthe room next door, and they made them leave. And for about three weeks or so,\nthey had to block the jazz studio off -- at least, access to the jazz studio for\nthe jazz studies people -- so that this group could rehearse on the other side\nof that room, without having to hear us. Which meant that, you know, I'm the\ndirector of the program, but I had to move around. I had to even move my lessons\naround to accommodate, and I hate to say it, but to accommodate somebody who\nprobably hasn't done as much as I've done musically. I'm in all kinds of history\nbooks. If you go to any of these bookstores around here and you're looking for a\nbook about jazz, I'm probably listed in most of those books.\n\nI've probably played in a lot of the places that a lot of these people say they\nwant to play in, like the Royal Festival Hall. I hate to make it sound like\nbragging, but we do a lot of the same things. I just don't understand. Things\ndon't seem consistent in the way that the program is being run or the program is\nbeing treated.\n\nAnd I've played at Carnegie Hall, I've played at Lincoln Center. I'm playing at\nLincoln Center again at the end of the year. I've played in a lot of the larger\nhalls in Europe, in Japan. So, I don't know. We just need space, and it's not\nreally going to happen because there are a lot of people who say that they\nsupport the program, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=1080.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but then once it gets too close to them, then they say no.\nYou know -- \"This is making a little bit too much noise and we can't have it here.\"\n\nSo, I don't know what we're going to do. I don't know where we're going to be. I\nmean, I'm hoping that we can have a space where people won't knock on the door\nand say, \"Stop doing this,\" because I've even had people knock on the door and\nask me to stop practicing. I mean students.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: What was your response?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, there were things that I wanted to say, but I know sometimes\nI have to keep my mouth shut because if I get a little too vocal about things,\nthen people will take it the wrong way. Because I found that there's a tendency,\nif I deal with things the way that I feel they should be dealt with, then some\npeople, they get a lot more offended by it than it probably would be if it had\nbeen some other teacher. Or they blow it way out of proportion. Because one of\nthe rumors that I've heard floating around about me is that I have a bad temper.\nAnd I don't really see how that could have floated around by the way that I deal\nwith most of the people who come through; also, the administrators, teachers, or\nthe students. I don't think I really do anything that is that far removed from\nwhat anybody else does around the school, and probably even less. Because I've\nasked other students, asked how some of the teachers deal with students who\ndon't do the work, or students who don't come to ensemble rehearsals prepared,\nand they say that I'm like a lot easier and a lot lighter on the students than\nsome of the other ensemble directors.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=1200.0,1320.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I had one incident in the beginning of maybe my second year here. There was\nsomeone who worked in one of the offices at Peabody, and it was probably\nsomebody who wanted to be a performer and is working in an office, and probably,\nyou know, they rarely play. And I think this happens in a lot of cases, because\nI have some friends who have taught in other schools, and they say that there\nare people who are stuck in school only because they don't really play well.\nThey tend to harbor some resentment toward other people who got out and did some\nperforming. And I think that this might have been the case with this person. But\nanyway, the person sent me some email while I was on tour. And this was, I\nguess, five years ago, so email wasn't as accessible when you went to Europe\nback then. And I got back and I checked email, and I had a few messages from\nthis person.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And this was five years ago?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah, this was about five years ago.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And this was a Peabody faculty member?\n\nGARY THOMAS: It's not a faculty member, but somebody who worked on the staff at\nPeabody. The person had like a -- I mean, the last message that this person sent\nme was really pretty nasty. And the person wasn't a boss of mine. It wasn't the\ndean or the director. It was just somebody who worked in one of the little\noffices at Peabody.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: What was it referring to?\n\nGARY THOMAS: The fact that I didn't get right back to him.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: About?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Just about something that had happened at the beginning of the\nschool year. It might have been about, you know, class schedules or something\nlike that. But I was on tour. And what a lot of people don't realize -- and I\nthink they do realize it, but in my case sometimes it seems like it's a little\ndifferent -- but they don't realize that they all sit in offices, and they sit\nlike five inches away from the computer screen, almost always, so they have the\ntime to check email. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=1320.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If I'm on tour, I can't check email every day. And that was\npart of my agreement with the school anyway -- that if I taught here, I would\nstill be able to go out on tour.\n\nBut anyway, this person sent this nasty message to me, and I sent one back. And\nI said that I didn't appreciate the fact that he took that tone with me, because\nhe wasn't my boss. And I said that I had better things to do. I perform, and I\ncan't sit in front of my computer all day long checking and sending email out,\nand I would answer when I would get back. And I said that I also didn't\nappreciate the fact that whenever people have things to say that aren't so\npleasant, they choose to do it by email. I said that if I had something that I\nfelt was unpleasant to say, then I'd just walk up to your office and say it to\nyou. So, the next message that I got back from him was that he thought that I\nwas threatening him because I said that I would say something to him.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: He put that on file?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, he sent it to me, and I think he cc'd it to the dean, and\nmade it look like I was threatening his wellbeing because I said I won't hide\nbehind my computer if I need to say something to somebody. And like I said, I\njust think that sometimes in my case, people blow things out of proportion, just\nlike the thing of not answering an email. Because I have sent messages to some\nof the other faculty members -- We had the same thing last week that happened.\nOne of the faculty members sent me an email, and I missed it. It was my fault\nbecause I missed the message. But I've sent this person a few email messages,\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=1440.0,1560.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and had the same deal -- I haven't gotten a response. But what happened was, it\nkind of filtered into some of the stuff that we needed to do last week with the\nbig band concert, and it threw a lot of things out of kilter. Well, the person\nalso lied. When the person said they tried to contact me several times, and I\nhave one email message on my computer. One. And this person said that they sent\nme several messages, tried to contact me several times, and they did the same\nthing -- sent it out, cc'd it to a lot of people, and it just made it look like\nI was asleep at the helm.\n\nBut, you know, none of the other teachers are doing what I'm doing right now. I\nknow some of them are doing multiple ensembles and some are teaching in\nclassrooms, but I'm functioning as studio faculty. I'm teaching four saxophone\nstudents right now, and I'm trying to run a program. So I'm basically doing\nsecretarial work, but then I can't do secretarial work because I spend all the\ntime in the jazz studio.\n\nI mean, you've seen me in there. Sometimes I get out for about twenty-five\nminutes to go and grab something to eat, but I'm right back in there. And there\nhave been times when I've run home for a second just to see if I can check some\nemail. But then I see some messages on the computer, and I say, okay, I've got\nto run back because I'll be late for class. And if I'm late for class then I\ncan't -- [Phone RINGS].\n\nBut I can't harass the students about being late. So I try to get back on time\nand sometimes I just miss messages because of that. And they should understand\nthat because I don't sit at a computer all of the time. And then by the time I\nfinish, on some days, most of them have gone. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=1560.0,1680.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501/transcript/39219/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[PHONE RINGS] I mean, sure, a lot\nof people come in, you know. They have set hours and they deal with their stuff.\nAnd at the end of those hours, they leave. But I can't do that. I have to deal\nwith everything, and then I have to deal with the teaching, for instance, and\nthen afterwards, after everybody is gone, I have to go back and try to answer\nemail messages, which is not the way the thing should work.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Are you going to be relieved at all next year with other, new\nfaculty members? Are they going to have more shared responsibilities?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, that's what I'm pushing for right now. Because as I said\nbefore in the other interview, I just I don't think that the students will get\nthe full benefit of what could be offered in the program if we're all too\ntasked. And especially in my case, because I'm supposed to deal with\nadministrative duties, and I can't really deal with them if I'm not sitting near\na phone sometimes. It's impossible.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: So, does it look like they are going to try to bring some more\npeople in, or if the ones available now are going to get more classes?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, I've talked to some of the other teachers, and they said\nthey'd be willing to do more.\n\n[END PART 1]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117501#t=1680.0,1800.0"}]}]},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 3 - pims0091_ThomasG_200205-1_02.mp3"]},"duration":1806.02776,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/502/small/Thomas_Gary_photoshop_jpeg.jpg?1651085676","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-peabody.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/502/original/pims0091_ThomasG_200205-1_02.mp3?1624270993","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":1806.02776,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["ThomasG_200205_2_OHMS_20220804 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"GARY THOMAS: But all the teachers have said that they would teach more. And they\nunderstand too, because I've talked to a few of them and they said, \"Well, I\ndon't know how you keep it going because you spend so much time here, and then\nhow do you practice, and how do you do this, and how do you do that because\nthere's too many things.\" Because I can already tell right now that my playing,\nit's not the same because I don't practice like I used to.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: You think you're going to, at some point, kind of stray away\nfrom playing or performing as much and put more emphasis on teaching? Or are you\nstill going to continue to balance both equally?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I've already done that. I've already put the performing on the back\nburner because the program has to happen, and it can't really happen if I'm\nalways on tour. This year, I think I spent maybe about twelve days on the road,\nwhich was about a month ago now. I went out for two weeks and part of that time\nwas over weekends, so I think I left on a Saturday and came back on a Thursday,\na couple of weeks later. But that's the longest that it's been this year. So\neverything that I've done, if it hasn't happened on the weekend it, it's not\nreally happening.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: How do you cope with the idea of your playing suffering because\nof your teaching? Are you a performer first?\n\nGARY THOMAS: No, I see myself as a teacher first. And I have to see it like that\nin order to get this thing working. I mean, I still want to play -- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=0.0,120.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"keep\nsomething happening musically -- but I know that in order for this to exist,\nsomebody has to focus on it. It can't work with a bunch of people functioning as\nadjunct faculty members. There's no way. What? [Laughter]\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I'm trying to think.\n\nGARY THOMAS: I have a question. Now if you're studying in the program, would you\nrespect the teacher if your teacher didn't sound good?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yes.\n\nGARY THOMAS: You would?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: If I knew what the teacher sacrificed in order to be in a\nposition to teach me. For instance, I've had maybe three private flute teachers.\nAnd one in particular -- okay, I can't really say that, because I've studied\nwith Hubert Laws and Marina Piccinini, who I think are world-class,\nworld-renowned flutists. But some of my other teachers, I felt as I advanced\ncertain things in my playing, I can't say were better than, but I think I was\nstarting to refine more than my teachers. But I never once started to think in\nmy head, \"Oh, I'm getting better than her. I need to find a new teacher.\"\nBecause I knew that they still knew more, they forgot more than I could ever\nfathom at that point. And even then, I would still respect their life experience\nand their musical experience. I already knew there was always something I could\nlearn from them. You know what I mean?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Did that answer your question?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I guess it did. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=120.0,240.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But I guess what I was asking you --\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Oh, I see what you're saying. But when you're dealing with male\npeople, men or boy students, it's probably a different thing.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Why?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I think guys, you know, they nag or complain about other guys\nmore, like a male teacher.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Meaning what?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I could hear a young guy say, \"Man, by the time I'm that age,\nI'm going to do this, or he can't even do that.\" [Laughter] I can hear a guy do that.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, why does it got to be like, directed at guys?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I don't know. Because I guess that's what I keep coming across\nwith the guys that I'm dealing with in the department or have dealt with in jazz\nstudies in general.\n\nGARY THOMAS: You didn't find that with classical musicians that you ran into?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Not really. When classical musicians, professional musicians\nget that certain status, I think the classical world seems to put them on a\npedestal and leave them there. Even if their playing has dwindled to nothing,\nthey still -- \"Oh that was such and such, and do you remember what he did in 1956?\"\n\nGARY THOMAS: You don't think they do that with jazz musicians?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yes.\n\nGARY THOMAS: I think they do. So I guess we didn't really make a point.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No.\n\nGARY THOMAS: We have found out that you have a problem with men. [Laughter] Or\njazz men. I'm sorry it's not my -- I'm not supposed to be asking the questions.\nAll right, so you ask the questions.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=240.0,360.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"How has life been as a jazz man? I mean, you had mentioned\nearlier that you're a person first and a musician second.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And as a jazz student I find myself basically running myself\nliterally raggedy trying to become a jazz musician. And it was enlightening to\nhear someone say that they put themselves as a person first. Were you always\nlike that or did it take someone to come into your life and put that in\nperspective for you?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I think it's always been sort of like that. And I don't know if\nI've ever seen myself as a jazz man. Being a jazz musician or living that kind\nof style hasn't been, was never like a focal point of mine. Otherwise, I would\nprobably dress differently, and I would have a different kind of slang. Because\nit seems like the people who that might be important to have a different way of\ndealing with things. You know, they dress differently, they have all these fancy\nhandshakes. I don't know any of that stuff.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: You do seem to be a bit of a minimalist.\n\nGARY THOMAS: What do you mean, \"minimalist\"?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: You dress simple, you say things that are direct, to the point.\nI don't remember what kind of car you drive. I did see the apartment that a\nstudent lived in that you lived in prior to, and everything just seemed to be\nvery in place. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=360.0,480.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don't know.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, you know why I think -- You say minimalist, being direct. I\nhate -- Can I say this on this tape?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: It's profane?\n\nGARY THOMAS: It's profanity.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: All right. [Laughter]\n\nGARY THOMAS: I was going to say bullshit. I hate rhetoric. I like people to get\nto the point with me. If they're going to say something, I just want them to say\nit. And they don't need to candy-coat it or break it to me easy or whatever. Or\njust information -- I don't want to have to weed through a bunch of unnecessary\nlanguage just to get to the point.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And not just language, but in your office or at home, or the\nthings around you. You just seem to be very --\n\nGARY THOMAS: Ordered.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Or structured.\n\nGARY THOMAS: I guess that's the way I like things.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Let's talk about your improvisational approach. I had a friend\nof mine tell me the other day that he just loves the way you flow -- kind of\nsounds like you're rapping when you improvise.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Who said that? Oh, don't tell me. It sounds like I'm rapping?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: He said your rhythm is just -- He was saying a lot about Greg\nOsby as well. He was really not comparing the two of you, but we were on the\nsubject of the faculty concert, and he just loves the fact that both of you --\nyou in particular -- have a way of just going in and out of the rhythm, but\nstaying right in rhythm without swaying, or whatever. What's your response on\nthat? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=480.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Did you ever spend a lot of time or emphasis on your rhythm?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I don't know if I spent a lot of time on it. But I've been working\nwith computer music for years -- probably since the time I was about\ntwenty-four. And when you deal with sequences all day long (especially in the\nlearning process, too) you listen to this metronome, and you listen to it for\nhours and hours. And I think that had a lot to do with my concept of time.\nBecause I never really sat down and spent a lot of time just purposefully\nworking out being able to play in time or subdividing things. I mean, once you\nhear things so much --\n\nAnd this is what I suggest to a lot of students, too. If they have problems with\ntime, or keeping a steady beat, sometimes I just tell them that while they're\ndoing things around the house, just turn a metronome on so you can listen to it,\nand you develop a sense of time without having to focus on it. Because I know I\nspent hours not really focusing on that metronome that was on my computer, but\nstill hearing it somehow. And I'm sure it became a part of what I'm doing. And\nwe're talking about years of hearing this.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Right.\n\nGARY THOMAS: And then I also had a band, and we played for about five or six\nyears -- I took bands out on the road that played the sequences. And then I\nloved hip-hop music too.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Who are some of your favorite artists?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Favorite artists? I don't know if I should say who my favorite\nartists are because we're talking about Peabody, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=600.0,720.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and if I talk about some of my\nfavorite artists then I'll probably get kicked out of here.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: You don't want to mention them?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Huh?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: You don't want to mention just three that you admire?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I don't know if I would say that I admire them, but I just like the\nmusic. There are people who love Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. You can't say\nthat they're great, but you just love them for whatever they are. And the same\nthing with hip hop music. For me, I like that whole thing, the beat and the\ngroove, because it feels like it's a lot about that. A lot of the music is about\nthat groove and the pulse. And that's what I find that I like about most music\nin general. If it feels right, then I can listen to just about anything.\n\nBut I also like the aspect of simplicity with that. Because sometimes you just\nhear a beat and maybe a bass or something. This is, you said like minimalist,\nnot much at all.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: So, who would you say?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Who would I say? Well, let's put it like this. I like a lot of\nhardcore music. Because I think that people that did most of that hardcore music\n-- I don't think it's full of the bullshit that I usually dislike about people.\nIt's just straight to the point, and it is what it is. Either you love it or you don't.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yes.\n\nGARY THOMAS: So you can see I'm not going to answer you, right?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: [Laughs] So, what would you say -- For instance, the big band\nplayed [unclear]. Where would you say you got a lot of your ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=720.0,840.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"compositional\ninfluences from? How do you start out writing a new tune or piece?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I start out writing from the bottom up. Sometimes I start with a\ndrum pattern or feel, and then I go from there. And then usually bass comes\nnext, and then I harmonize everything. There are times when the melody comes\nfirst, but for the most part it starts the other way. It starts from the rhythm\nand then on from that point. Don't go to sleep.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: So why all black?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Why all black? I like black.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: You ever thought to wear all white one day?\n\nGARY THOMAS: No. [Laughter] I used to wear other colors.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: How long ago?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I don't remember now.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Those days under Kirby.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. I just like black, so that's what it is. [Thomas makes\nknocking noise] Hello.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I'm thinking.\n\nGARY THOMAS: What are you thinking about?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Questions.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Ask questions about music, more music. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=840.0,960.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Maybe you want to know why\n-- no, I want to know why you don't think I'm a flute player.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Why don't I think -- Oh. [Laughter] I think you're a flute player.\n\nGARY THOMAS: No, you don't.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I think you're a doubler [musician who plays multiple instruments].\n\nGARY THOMAS: You think I'm a doubler?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I still think of you as a doubler.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. Why?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Because you double.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Because I play two instruments?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: You play more than that.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. So, when you say that I'm a doubler, does that mean that I\ncan't play the instruments well?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No, I wouldn't say that.\n\nGARY THOMAS: So what are you saying then?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Somebody asked me something like this a few months ago. I think\nthey said, \"So do you see Gary Thomas as a flute player first or a saxophone?\" I\nsaid, \"Saxophone.\" He said, \"Why?\" He said, \"Because if I was turning on the\nrecording, I would think it's a flute player playing flute.\" I said, \"Well, it\ndepends on what you're listening for.\" I said, \"The first time I heard --\" I\nthink I heard you play in the studio -- \"I would think that's a doubler trait.\"\nAnd he asked me what it was, and I said it was the F-sharp, the middle F-sharp.\nIt has a different sound. So if I hear -- [unclear] and at the time I was giving\nhim a private lesson because he was giving me --\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, see I use this to [inaudible].\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yeah. But it was just one of those things. There are certain\nthings in there that make you think, Oh, that's a doubler. But no --\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, is that a bad thing though?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Because I remember playing in Philadelphia one time, and I played\nflute, and I used this finger. And right after the thing was over, this guy\nwalked over to me, I think just to let me know that he thought he was a flute\nplayer. But he said, \"Yeah, that was a good solo, but use that F-sharp.\"\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=960.0,1080.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I wouldn't go so far as to make a comment on it.\n\nGARY THOMAS: But that's what I don't understand about people sometimes. They'll\nhear like the whole [thing], and find one really small thing that probably\ndoesn't even matter anyway, and then say that that has an impact on everything.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No. [Laughter]\n\nGARY THOMAS: Because I knew that already about you.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No. You already knew what about me?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I knew that you watched to see which one of these fingers I used.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No.\n\nGARY THOMAS: You did. [Laughs]\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Then how did you know?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Truthfully, I can hear it.\n\nGARY THOMAS: I don't think you can.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I promise you I can. Because the guy even tested me in the\npractice room. He kept doing it over and over again.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah, but can he play?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Well, that too. I mean, cause if you --\n\nGARY THOMAS: He might be a doubler.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Oh, he is a doubler.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Okay.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: But there are certain things that you can also do with your\nembouchure to make up for either one that you're using. And because he's an\ninexperienced doubler, he could not do both without making them sound that much\ndifferent. Granted that's a good point, too, but I wouldn't go so far as to say\nthat you're not a flute player because you double.\n\nGARY THOMAS: I heard things that you said about me.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I don't care. Like what?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I'm just joking. [Laughter]\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I was thinking, for example, there's this guy that played with\nWynton [Marsalis]'s big band last week, and sometimes I really consider the fact\nthat I should be fluent in something else. But for some reason I'm just\noverwhelmed by the idea right now. Maybe because so much is going on that I\ncan't see it for myself right now, and by the time that I get to it maybe it'll\nbe too late.\n\nI played this gig with this person the other day, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=1080.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and this person may have\ntwenty years on me, life. And I was just thinking, how difficult it must be to\nshare the stage with other musicians that are much, much better and much\nyounger. You know what I mean?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Why?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I don't know. Maybe because I sense it.\n\nGARY THOMAS: That's an ego thing.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Maybe because I sensed it in that person.\n\nGARY THOMAS: That's an ego thing.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I don't think so. I think I sensed it in that person because of\nthings that have been said or done towards me. Seriously. But granted --\n\nGARY THOMAS: That is about ego.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: You think so?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah, it is about ego. You talk about it being difficult to share a\nstage with someone because they're better and younger, or more fluent? Maybe not\nbetter, but --\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yeah, maybe not better. Because you know you have those people\nout there that feel that jazz is not a science. It's what you feel and that type\nof thing.\n\nGARY THOMAS: And do they play well?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Okay. [Laughs]\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: This is that type of person. But that person would also like to\nturn it around and say that they feel it's unnecessary to learn all the bookwork\nand stuff behind it or to learn the theory behind it. But I think somewhere in\nthe back of their mind, they're thinking, I wish I had done that.\n\nGARY THOMAS: But I think that's a cop out, though, when people say those kinds\nof things about jazz because it's a combination of all those things. It's\nsimilar to the way people are, because we're all a combination of intellect,\nemotion and whatever. And the hardest thing for me to get to of it, and I have\nto say, I bet -- and I hate to make this sound like I'm some sort of racist --\nbut I'll bet that person is Black.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: [Laughs] Why would you guess that?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Am I right?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yes.\n\nGARY THOMAS: ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=1200.0,1320.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Yeah. Okay.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Why?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Because I've run into a lot of musicians like that who just say\nthat they don't want to learn. They turn away the knowledge from books, or they\ntry not to be as analytical about the music because they figure that it's going\nto somehow stunt their Blackness. Did you get that impression?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Definitely.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. And I just can't get with the idea of just being ignorant\njust because I'm Black. Because that's what it amounts to. I've heard it from a\nlot of people, and they're some of the same people I was talking about in the\nbeginning. I mean, they spent years just avoiding that whole thing, and then\nthey regret it like twenty years later. Because then they'll look back, and\nthey'll see these players who are twenty years old, and they've spent the time\nlearning all those things that are accessible to them now.\n\nI know one person in particular who is really, really self-conscious about\nplaying around people now because this person knows that they don't have it\ntogether, and they know that everybody can hear it. But before, the person was\nreally resentful and just thought that people didn't like him because he was\nBlack. And it didn't have anything to do with that. It had a lot to do with the\nfact that there were things that he just didn't have together, and it was\nobvious to a really good musician.\n\nWhoever this person was that you were talking to you, they were basically\ntelling you that being Black and playing music is similar to just being -- I\nmean, it's okay to be ignorant. That's the bottom line. Because they were born\nwith something that they don't want to really mess with. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=1320.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I just can't see\nthe logic in that.\n\nAnd this is what I mean for me -- If you're going to play music, I think you\nwant to know as much as you can possibly know. Then you have a choice. You have\na choice to use these things, or you can say, \"No, I don't want to use that.\"\nBut suppose one day this person gets up, and they have something that they want\nto try to do, but they just don't know how to use it. They don't have a choice.\nAnd the choices are just limited by lack of knowledge. And also, if you have the\nopportunity to learn something, you should just go for it. Don't reject it just\nbecause you think it's going to make you seem or feel White because that's not\nthe deal. Because I've gotten that with musicians who say they don't want to\nlearn how to read. They say they don't want to learn how to read, or they don't\nwant to learn how to analyze music because they say it makes them White, or it\nmakes them like a White musician. And it's like the most ridiculous thing I've\never heard in my life.\n\nI'm telling you they're going to be pissed off, and they're going to be really\nself-conscious about it twenty years from now, because they're going to get\nstuck in a situation where they might have to play or read some music, and\nthey're going to be self-conscious about it. Or they're going to have to turn\nsome gigs down because of it. Because they don't want anybody to know that they\ndon't know how to read. And then you hear these same musicians who will\ncomplain. They'll complain about other musicians too, they'll complain about the\nfact that they know how to read. It's the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my\nlife. You know, \"Oh it's okay, but all they're doing is just reading music.\" I\nmean, that's an accomplishment ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=1440.0,1560.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"too. Or I've heard this comment -- \"Yeah, it's\nokay, but all they're doing is just playing the right notes.\"\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: [Laughs] You've heard that?\n\nGARY THOMAS: I've heard so many of them. I used to get dogged around here for\nusing White musicians.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Really?\n\nGARY THOMAS: The bottom line for me was that I just wanted people who could\nplay. I didn't care what they looked like, or if I could get that file cabinet\nto play piano for me, it's going to be playing in my band. I just found in a lot\nof cases, people want you to come out, and they pay more attention to the racial\nmakeup of your band or pay attention to whether you're playing with your middle\nfinger on the flute, as opposed to just dealing with what they're hearing.\nBottom line for me is I want to hear it. If I go and listen to some music, I\nwant to hear the music, and I don't care what the people look like, I don't care\nhow they're getting it out.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I think the person who made that comment about your F-sharp key\nwas probably not understanding what was happening musically.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yes.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Because I think, if and when I did hear that -- that was last\nyear when my ear was not in tune to whatever you were playing -- I just knew it\nsounded good. That's just the sad fact, but I'm kind of proud of that because\nnow every time I listen -- I mean, even then it wasn't about the F-sharp key.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, I wasn't picking at you, though.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: No, I know. But even so, it really surprises me how much more\nmy ears have opened up since just then. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=1560.0,1680.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because I just couldn't hear anything\nlast year. And now, even this morning I was listening to Freddie Hubbard, and I\nlistened to his line one time, and I could write it out. There's no way I would\nhave thought that I would be able to do that this time last year. And I just\nstarted writing it, because occasionally if I'm walking down the hall and I hear\na jazz musician practicing and I like something they did, I'll just hum it and\nI'll go and as soon as I get a pen and paper, I just write out five lines and\nwrite out what I thought I heard.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, that's a good exercise.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yeah, I did that this morning, and so I just wrote down what I\nthought I heard Hubbard playing and I played it back and I wrote exactly the\nlines. So, I definitely think that person that was listening to you was not into\nwhat was happening musically whatever, and just wanted to have a reason to complain.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Or just not really concerned with what was most important at that time.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yeah.\n\nGARY THOMAS: It's funny, because I see a lot of that same thing happening around\nhere -- the last thing that we were talking about -- people looking at the\nracial make-up of groups. I see a lot of that happening at Peabody, too. Or I\nalso heard a comment about the faculty concert, and somebody was talking about\nhow diverse the group looked because I guess the stage was somehow evenly\nbalanced. [Laughter] Yeah, I've heard that. In some places those things are, I\nguess, really important, but they weren't concerned about the music. They were\npaying more attention to what the people looked like on stage, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=1680.0,1800.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502/transcript/39220/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and how evenly\nbalanced the numbers were.\n\n[END PART 2]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117502#t=1800.0,1920.0"}]}]},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117503","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 3 - pims0091_ThomasG_200205-2_01.mp3"]},"duration":342.04735,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/503/small/Thomas_Gary_photoshop_jpeg.jpg?1651085695","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117503/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117503/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-peabody.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/503/original/pims0091_ThomasG_200205-2_01.mp3?1624270994","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":342.04735,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117503","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117503/transcript/39221","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["ThomasG_200205_3_OHMS_20220804 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117503/transcript/39221/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[PHONE RINGING]\n\nGARY THOMAS: I mean, that could be the case. I'm sure that there was a lot of\nthat happening, but I don't know. I can't say for sure. I've seen bands, like\nbig bands and things where some of the players who were in the band, I didn't\nthink they really played that well, and I didn't get called for some of those.\nBut I can't always assume that just because I didn't get called for something\nwas because of this thing or that thing. So I don't know. But I do know that\nsome bands like that did function that way, or the bandleaders did things that\nway. But I do recall getting in a band because of that.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Really?\n\nGARY THOMAS: [Laughs] Yes. And the guy didn't tell me why I was in the band\nuntil after I was already on stage playing. But I played with this blues band,\nand I won't say the name of the band, but I played quite a few gigs with this\nguy. And then we went to Morgantown, West Virginia, and we were on stage, and\nthe band was pretty well received there in this club, and he said to me, \"Man,\nthis is really great, you know. And I'm glad you can play in the band because we\nhave this blues band, and it looks, it really -- I just like the fact that we\ngot, you know, like a really big Black guy playing in this blues band. You know\nit looks good for the band.\"\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: You were the only one.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: And it probably didn't even dawn on him that that was an\ninsult, huh?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Well, see that's why I don't really get that pissed off with people\nsometimes. Because sometimes I don't think they really understand what they're\nsaying or how it comes ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117503#t=0.0,120.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117503/transcript/39221/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"across. And that's another reason why I keep my mouth\nshut a lot, too.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Why?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Because sometimes when you say things, you let people know how\nstupid you are. [Laughs] I like to try and keep quiet until I think I know\nwhat's going on.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yeah.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Because especially in cases like that, or even with just making\njudgments about music, sometimes you just don't know. I went to a master class\nup at Goucher College, and there's this Indian drummer there, and the guy is\nplaying. And I walked in, and I didn't know what he was playing. He was just\nplaying. And to me, just because I had no reference point or anything, I walked\nin, and it just sounded like a whole bunch of beating. [Laughter] But I didn't\nsay anything. I just sat there and I waited because I knew that he was probably\na great musician. But I just didn't understand him, and I just sat there, and\nthen he got up afterwards, and he explained what he was doing, and then he went\nback and did it again, and then I understood. But if I had just walked in and I\nsaid something about it. If I had just walked in and said \"Oh, this is\nbullshit,\" because I don't understand it, then I would have looked like a jackass.\n\nAnd I just notice that people do that a lot. They have their first impression,\nand they usually make a comment about it. And then you can read a lot and tell a\nlot about people when they say things. That's why I keep my mouth shut. But it\nprobably doesn't sound like it right now because I've been rambling on over and\nover again about different things. I should shut up now. I will if you don't\nhave any more questions. Plus, you made me burn all my Pop-Tarts this morning.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117503#t=120.0,240.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117503/transcript/39221/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What? Not even.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: How?\n\nGARY THOMAS: You called and confirmed this thing and told me you were going to\nbe late. And I had Pop-Tarts in the toaster and they burned.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I can't imagine you eating a Pop-Tart.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Why not?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: I just can't. That's funny. Now that you mention it, I could\nnever see you eating any cereal. [Laughter]\n\nGARY THOMAS: Why not?\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Fruity Pebbles. I just couldn't see it.\n\nGARY THOMAS: No, I don't eat Fruity Pebbles.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Golden Grahams? Cinnamon Toast Crunch? Are you a Frosted Flakes?\n\nGARY THOMAS: No, I like granola.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: What?\n\nGARY THOMAS: Granola.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Oh, granola bars?\n\nGARY THOMAS: No, like the --\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Cereal.\n\nGARY THOMAS: Yeah. It's combinations of things, like healthy eating and then\nunhealthy eating. A little more on the healthy side, but sometimes I have to be\nnice to myself and I'll eat a Pop-Tart or something. I like the way they taste.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: All right, you've earned yours.\n\nGARY THOMAS: So, see, that probably means we need to stop talking now because\nwe're talking about Pop-Tarts.\n\nDELANDRIA MILLS: Yeah. [unclear]\n\nGARY THOMAS: So, you want something profound at the end of this?\n\n[MILLS LAUGHS]\n\n[END OF INTERVIEW]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44172/file/117503#t=240.0,360.0"}]}]}]}