{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/iiif/b27pn8xx3s/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Henry Baker and Reppard Stone oral history, 2002 August 20"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/008/original/peabody-institute.logo.large.horizontal.blue.cropped.png?1549570058","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eActive as a performer and club owner, Henry Baker (1921-2008) ran a haberdashery on Pennsylvania Avenue that was a meeting place for jazz greats performing at the Royal Theatre and the clubs on the Avenue. He also operated jazz clubs: Peyton Place on Pennsylvania Avenue in the 1960s and, later, The Closet on Franklin Street. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eReppard Stone (1930-2019) came to Baltimore in 1949 from Macon, Georgia, to study at Morgan College. He became deeply involved with the Baltimore music scene, performing in the City Colored Symphony Orchestra and sitting in with older musicians performing in the clubs along Pennsylvania Avenue. He quickly achieved a reputation as a gifted arranger and performer. He taught at Douglass High School while pursuing graduate studies at Catholic University, receiving a PhD in 1974. He taught music for many years at Howard University.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eIn this interview, Henry Baker and Reppard Stone discuss musical careers and their encounters with well-known jazz musicians who visited Baltimore and played at clubs on Pennsylvania Avenue in the 1940s and 1950s.\u003c/p\u003e (Abstract)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":[" 2002-08-20 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":[" Baker, Henry, 1921-2008 (Interviewee)"," Stone, Reppard (Interviewee)"," Schaaf, Elizabeth M. (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":[" English (Primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio/mp3"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Peabody Institute of the Johns Hopkins University"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe collection is open for use. Contact peabodyarchives@lists.jhu.edu for more information.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["https://aspace.library.jhu.edu/repositories/4/archival_objects/215335"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eActive as a performer and club owner, Henry Baker (1921-2008) ran a haberdashery on Pennsylvania Avenue that was a meeting place for jazz greats performing at the Royal Theatre and the clubs on the Avenue. He also operated jazz clubs: Peyton Place on Pennsylvania Avenue in the 1960s and, later, The Closet on Franklin Street. \u003cbr /\u003e\u003cbr /\u003eReppard Stone (1930-2019) came to Baltimore in 1949 from Macon, Georgia, to study at Morgan College. He became deeply involved with the Baltimore music scene, performing in the City Colored Symphony Orchestra and sitting in with older musicians performing in the clubs along Pennsylvania Avenue. He quickly achieved a reputation as a gifted arranger and performer. He taught at Douglass High School while pursuing graduate studies at Catholic University, receiving a PhD in 1974. He taught music for many years at Howard University.\u003cbr /\u003e\u003cbr /\u003eIn this interview, Henry Baker and Reppard Stone discuss musical careers and their encounters with well-known jazz musicians who visited Baltimore and played at clubs on Pennsylvania Avenue in the 1940s and 1950s.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eThe collection is open for use. Contact peabodyarchives@lists.jhu.edu for more information.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Peabody Institute of the Johns Hopkins University"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Peabody Institute of the Johns Hopkins University"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/008/original/peabody-institute.logo.large.horizontal.blue.cropped.png?1549570058","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/372/small/baker_and_stone_photoshop_jpeg.jpg?1649796352","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 3 - pims0091_BakerH-1_01.mp3"]},"duration":3007.03347,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/372/small/baker_and_stone_photoshop_jpeg.jpg?1649796352","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-peabody.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/372/original/pims0091_BakerH-1_01.mp3?1624270758","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":3007.03347,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Baker-Stone-edited [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: Would you be kind enough to introduce yourself and tell us who you are?\n\nBAKER: Henry Baker.\n\nSTONE: Reppard Stone.\n\nSCHAAF: Mr. Baker, how long have you been living here in Baltimore?\n\nBAKER: I've been living in Baltimore since 1932. So you figure that out.\n\nSCHAAF: What brought you and your family to Baltimore?\n\nBAKER: I was raised in Washington. My father died at an early age as far as I\nwas concerned, ten years old. And my sister moved to Baltimore with some\nfriends, and she encouraged my mother to come here. After my father died, we didn't have nowhere to live, but we came to Baltimore.\n\nSCHAAF: Where did your family move to in Baltimore?\n\nBAKER: You know, it's a funny thing, right here, almost in this immediate area,\nbut closer down to the middle -- I'd say the middle of Baltimore city, in the\nnorthwest area. We lived on McCulloh Street, McCulloh and McMechen, and there\nwas a school about two blocks from there, and I went to school there.\n\nSCHAAF: Some very fine musicians in that school. Ellis Larkins went to that school.\n\nBAKER: Right now, that school is some kind of a music school, 130.\n\nSTONE: Yeah, they have a musical component within that school.\n\nBAKER: But that used to be a junior high school.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: When I went there. I guess about ten years ago I went there to inquire\nabout enrolling my daughter there, and they told me she had to be eight years\nold to get in there.\n\nSo we never pursued it. You know.\n\nSCHAAF: Dr. Stone, when did you come to Baltimore?\n\nSTONE: Oh, I came in 1949. I came here to go to Morgan State, at that time\nCollege. And one of the first people I met was Mr. Baker, who introduced me to\nmy ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=0.0,180.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"first crabs, and he explained to me, don't eat the dead man, etc. [Laughter]\nI didn't know how to open a steamed crab. I was attracted to his musical ability\nand his knowledge of the city and knowledge of the musicians in the city and\nknowledge of people passing through town.\n\nSCHAAF: Well, Dr. Stone, your own musical ability is pretty impressive. Where\ndid you grow up, and when did you get start becoming involved in music?\n\nSTONE: I would like to start before that.\n\nSCHAAF: All right.\n\nSTONE: My mother was a pretty shrewd business lady, and she had been a former\nteacher, and there was a lady running a kindergarten in back of us named Rosa\nHolliman. And my sister and I used to go down and watch these youngsters when\nthey would come outside. We would want to go over and play. So the lady\npersuaded my mother to just let us come to kindergarten. She taught me to read\nbefore I went to school, and my sister -- I'm the first in the birth order, and\nthe next was a sister -- was the one with the musical talent so she got a music\nteacher, and he would come to the house and give her lessons on the piano.\n\nHe'd always want dinner afterwards. So my mother felt that she was losing money\ngiving him dinner, so he had to teach everybody the piano to get his meal\nafterwards. So I didn't have any choice. I had to start out in that John\nThompson's Piano Method, and that's how I got really started.\n\nAnd then later -- well, one of the things that really started my career was that\nafter this gentleman named Cassie Morris would have his meal, he would sit down\nand play jazz. I found the jazz that he played, supposedly for our\nentertainment, more interesting than old JohnThompson's lessons in the piano\nmethod book.\n\nSCHAAF: How long did you study with Mr. Morris?\n\nSTONE: Oh, well until I was in high school. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=180.0,360.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"My father sent us to a private\nschool. It was interesting -- it cost three dollars and fifteen cents monthly.\nIt was an American Missionary Association School called Ballard High School.\nHaving a church background, they didn't have music so much as a study, but they\nhad a choir and a choir director and that kind of thing. So World War II came\nalong and that changed everything. And that's when they hired a musician to\nstart a band.\n\nHe married a woman in my home town, and he was asked to start a band in my high\nschool. I went down to sign up for the band. I wanted trumpet and all the\ntrumpets were gone, so they gave me the baritone. My first wind instrument was\nthe baritone. And later another person replaced him named Westin, who was a\ntrombonist. He completely turned me around, because first of all, he showed me\nsome things unique about the trombone that the other teacher had not, and he\nintroduced me to the sound of a trombonist named J. J. Johnson from Indiana, and\nthe rest was history. After that, I was hooked. [Laughter]\n\nSCHAAF: Mr. Baker, how about you? How did you get involved?\n\nBAKER: Well, actually, in my early years my father was one of those piano\nplayers that played by ear. And we had a piano in my home. This is in\nWashington, growing up. Everybody in my house took piano lessons, and my father,\nwhen he came home after his work, he would sit down at the piano and entertain himself.\n\nI started out with a violin. After I got the violin, and let me see, I guess I\nwas in elementary school. The teacher told my father, don't waste your money on\nhim on violin. Because first of\n\nall, he's left-handed, and by me being left-handed, you had to learn the strings\nthe other way, the opposite way. He suggested to my father that it was a little\ndifficult for me. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=360.0,540.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then on top of that, I remember getting into fighting with\nthat violin. Kids teasing me as I had a violin.\n\nSo after that, I got very few piano lessons, but I learned some things about the\npiano, such as the scale, fingering, and what the notes were. But that's all I\nknew about. I was seven, eight and nine years old. After my father died,\neverything changed, you know. And then I came to Baltimore. I stayed in public\nschool. I didn't have any musical training at all. I think I might have been\nseventeen, eighteen years old when I bought a used saxophone because I still\nliked music.\n\nI got drafted in the Army. And when I got drafted in the Army, they put\neverybody over here that they wanted to -- it was a segregated Army -- and we\nwere sent to Texas. And I was placed in the quartermaster outfit. And they\ndidn't really have anything for us to do. This was the beginning. When did I go in the Army? 1942 I think it was. No, '43 I went in the Army.\n\nThey were forming all these units, and I was in this quartermaster outfit, and\nthey had us cleaning these trucks, you know. So I'm underneath this truck with\nthis grease all on me (that's all we had to do was take exercises and clean the\ntrucks), and I heard this band coming down the street, and they had on these\nuniforms. You know what a military band looks like. And they were clean, and\nthey were dancing and prancing. Nobody tell me anything about this! So I started\ninquiring. First I wanted to find out how you could get in the band. So the\nsergeant in charge of the band told me that this is the beginning of the\nformation of the outfits. He said, do you have any musical training? Well, of\ncourse, I told him I could play the saxophone. I wanted to get out of the\nquartermaster outfit.\n\nSo he transferred me to the band, and he told everybody in the band we got a new\nsaxophone player coming in. I couldn't play no saxophone, but I did know the\nfingering. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=540.0,720.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I had taught myself-- when I'd bought this horn, they give you an\ninstruction book, and I taught myself the fingering. And I knew the notes on the\npaper. I knew the lines and the spaces.\n\nSo, anyway, the sergeant found out that I couldn't play. So he told me, he said,\nlook, you're in the band now. He said I'm going to give you a chance. You take\nthat clarinet, and you go back there in what they call a latrine, which is the\nmen's room. You go back there and learn how to play it or I'm going to transfer\nyou back to the ground troops.\n\nSo you know that's all I wanted was a chance. I got that clarinet, went back\nthere. I found out who the worst clarinet player was, and then I just tried to\nget a little better than him, you know. [Laughter] And that was the beginning of\nmy musical career, if you want to call it that.\n\nSCHAAF: What a great incentive.\n\nBAKER: But I didn't want to go back in that quartermaster. And I stayed in that\nband for three years. And just being in the band and being around musicians you\nget a chance to learn. But, unfortunately, we had nobody to teach us. Your\nlearning capacity is very limited. But I had books, and of course I learned how\nto play the music the band had. And I played in the orchestra, and when I came\nout of the band I was a sergeant. I stayed in there three years, and then I\nstarted thinking about what am I gonna do.\n\nWell, I was married so I couldn't leave the city. I could have, now that I think\nabout it. I was very interested in music. Had I left the city I probably would\nhave been in a different ballgame because I would have went to a more credited\nschool. You didn't have any schools around here. Morgan didn't really have a\nmusic department. Peabody had. I don't want to say it, but I never heard of\nPeabody. I mean as far as Peabody was concerned, in my neighborhood, that wasn't\na word that we knew anything about. So I went to Morgan. We didn't have a band.\nWe didn't have nothing. They had an instrumental course. What is that course?\nMorgan is basically liberal arts, right?\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: Okay. So you had the teaching ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=720.0,900.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to be a music teacher. But not an\ninstrument major. So the instrument was coming in. So anyway, I stayed, and I\ntried to do a few things around there to help to get a little band together.\n\nWe had a little band together there with students who weren't music majors, just\nhad the desire to play. And I'd have to say that I was the one that started that\ngroup. I was trying to get something going.\n\nSTONE: No, no. You got something going.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. I got something going. And we played. We played at Bowie, and we\nplayed a few dances. I don't recall how we managed to do it, but we had about\nsix or seven pieces. Then the next year -- When did you come in -- '49 or '50?\n\nSTONE: '49.\n\nBAKER: I went there in '46. And '47, e struggled through there with our little\nband. '48 I went into the men's clothing business. I made a little money and I\ninvested it into a store.\n\nSTONE: Now where was that store located?\n\nBAKER: Right on Pennsylvania Avenue. That was the hot spot.\n\nSCHAAF: I understand there was more going on there than just selling clothes.\n\nBAKER: Well, I put a piano in the back. See I had the store I guess about maybe\nfrom here to there [compares it to the large meeting room at Mondawmin Mall].\nNot quite as wide as this, but maybe as deep. And the store was the front part,\nand in the back I had a piano, and we used to rehearse back there and musicians\nused to come.\n\nSee what happened, what really happened, in those days the musicians, the kind\nof musicians that were traveling musicians were basically the musicians that we\nwanted to meet, and they had no place to go when they come to town. So they\ncame. The word got out -- well you go to see Henry Baker. And my store, it\nwasn't that successful as far as clothes was concerned, but it was highly\nsuccessful as far as music was concerned.\n\nAll the musicians came to Baker's, and they had nowhere to go, and they'd hang out.\n\nSTONE: In the daytime.\n\nBAKER: They had nothing to do. They didn't know nobody, and there was no hotel\nthat accepted black musicians at that particular time. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=900.0,1080.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So the word got around\nthat my spot was the spot. In fact, one day I was in the store and a guy came in\nthe store, a big heavyset guy. Said you Henry Baker? I said yeah. He said my\nname is Cannonball. [Laughter] I said, Cannonball. I didn't know nothing about\nCannonball. But that's Julian Cannonball Adderley.\n\nSo he introduced himself and we got talking, you know. And he had been in the\nArmy band with a fellow musician from Baltimore, Stanley Johnson, and he had\ntold him to contact me when he come to Baltimore. And this is what happened: The\nstore got to be the mecca when musicians came to town. I mean all the musicians\nthat I'm talking about at that time were beginners. They weren't beginners; they\nwere professional, but they were starting out.\n\nSTONE: Starting their careers.\n\nBAKER: Their careers. And they all turned out to be just about superstars, you\nknow, jazz musicians.\n\nSTONE: Could I interrupt you?\n\nBAKER: Sure. Go ahead.\n\nSTONE: That room that he's talking about that had the piano was where I spent my\ntime also. I would sit back there and I was doing arrangements. And as a result\nof my writing, we put together a band, and because after Miles Davis had done\n\"Birth of the Cool,\" I became interested in small bands. And so we had a\ntrumpet, alto, tenor, I played trombone, and we had a baritone player.\n\nBAKER: Yeah.\n\nSTONE: And then we had a rhythm section. And I did arrangements for this band,\nand I would say this. These professional musicians that he's talking about that\ncame through there taught me more in one day passing through just talking with\nthem than I had learned in Morgan College.\n\nAnd the one thing they taught me was that what was taught in schools and what\nwas practiced among professional musicians was diametrically opposed to each other.\n\nIn institutions you're taught the structure from the bottom up. You know, it's\nlike the old preacher said, every good house has a strong foundation. So you\nstart at the bottom and build up. Well, they showed me no, no, no. We don't do\nthat. We start at the top and go down. Tell 'em about your experience in the Army.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1080.0,1260.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BAKER: I was in the Army band, and we had musicians. And I used to go down on\nthe beach with the piano player and he'd write arrangements. But he didn't take\nno piano with him.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: He had it up here, you know? And he would write the saxophone parts out,\nstarting with the first saxophone, lead saxophone, first alto. Then he'd write\nthe trumpet part. And we would sit there and watch the ladies in their bathing\nsuits, and he was writing away. And then after he finished, we'd go back up to\nthe barracks and play the arrangement.\n\nSTONE: Right. Right.\n\nBAKER: And I can't remember having played the arrangements and him stopping and\nsaying wait a minute, that's the wrong note. It was all correct. You know what I\nmean? But this is the way it was done -- out in the streets. In school they\nwouldn't teach you to do it that way. I would say, from my past experience, most\nof the guys who did band arrangements didn't go to school. They got it out of\ntheir band.\n\nSTONE: That's right.\n\nBAKER: You know, somebody in the band showed them how to do it, and they took it\nfrom there. A few went to school, but we didn't have too many back there in the '30s.\n\nSTONE: What is interesting is that historically this goes back through the Latin\nlanguage into Africa. \"Dux and comes,\" leader, companion, leader, companion. And\nthat was used even in African dance. They had a leader who was usually a male\nwho was the tallest one in the line, and he would be accompanied by companions.\nThis was in African-American thinking. This was not only common to dance, it was\ncommon to music, etc., etc. So they had a different perspective about how you\nsynthesize a piece. And that's why it was very important to have someone to\nserve as the leader, and the others were companions to the leader.\n\nAnd a lot of the things that they put into arrangements, interestingly enough,\nwere to accompany dance lines on the stage. They had a leader and companions on\nthe stage amongst the dancers.\n\nAnd so for younger musicians like us, we had to discover ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1260.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that because there was\nnothing in any schools to teach you this. And then, once you found out about it,\nit changed your whole perspective about the music.\n\nAnd that's why Thad Jones, when he moved to Europe, he used the term Gruppen\nleader. In this country we say section leader. And he brought that term across\nin the '70 and '80s, and he re- established that function of a certain person as\na leader. And boy there are some stories that I could tell you was behind that\nidea. [Laughter]\n\nThe first important band to surface after World War II was the Billy Eckstine\nband. Billy Eckstine was a singer. He had some beautiful background, but he\nneeded somebody that could function as leader, and he chose Dizzy Gillespie to\ndo the arrangements and lead the band. What happened was Dizzy got Charlie\nParker, and Charlie Parker sat there on the band and he led the section, and\nwhat they didn't know was that Charlie Parker was adding notes and filling in.\nHe was the leader. He could do that. So when Charlie Parker left the band, they\nbrought in a substitute. After the first show Dizzy told him to get the music\nand come downstairs. So Dizzy took and started playing the music with him; he\nplayed in on the trumpet. He stopped, and he said, that dirty, dirty -- you\nknow, some expletives, talking about Charlie Parker. He said, you're reading\nwhat's written, but Bird was adding stuff [laughter] to the music. But he saw\nhimself as a leader, and as a leader of a section, he felt free to add, you\nknow, to enhance, do all of that. And it was improvised. You know, it wasn't like he did the same thing every show!\n\nBAKER: He'd fill in different things on the next show.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: His ideas were unlimited. Unlimited.\n\nSCHAAF: So I'd like to go back a little bit. Can you tell me how you came to\nmeet Mr. Baker when you came to Baltimore?\n\nSTONE: This is interesting.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1440.0,1620.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BAKER: Yeah, how did you meet me?\n\nSTONE: Okay, see he had two roles. He had the role of musician, and he also had\nthe role of businessman, which threw him into company with a lot of other people\nwho were businessmen. And I've never forgotten Theophilus Jones.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. Yeah. Theophilus Jones. He was a tavern owner.\n\nSTONE: A tavern owner. And he had Baker come in. Baker had a group there. BAKER:\nI was going to Morgan. We had a jazz quartet.\n\nSTONE: Right. And it's very, very significant, because not only did I meet him,\nbut I met people like bassist Don Bailey and others who were coming, young\ncoming musicians and so forth. And I met a lot of the local musicians who were\nolder than him that were established. And so that not only opened me up to the\nmusical community, but it was through him [Baker] that I learned the city.\n\nBaltimore -- I hate to say it -- is culturally divided into east and west. There\nwere musicians in east Baltimore, didn't even know them, did you Baker?\n\nBAKER: Yeah.\n\nSTONE: So if you were in west Baltimore, an African American, you functioned\neither on Pennsylvania Avenue or on Fremont Avenue. That's where the work was,\nand that's where the musicians played. I'm not only am indebted to him for meeting him, but he also\nshowed me how the city was structured so that I met a lot of other musicians.\nAnd of course, that store was a real educational process. Unbelievable!\n\nWe talked about a fellow named Pete Peterson. Remember?\n\nBAKER: Yeah.\n\nSTONE: Pete Peterson had been on the road with somebody and met a lady in\nBaltimore and stopped. He was a fine writer, and I'll never forget -- I sitting\nin Baker's, and he came in and he was watching me work. I was explaining what I\nwas trying to do. And he asked me about dropping a note, second note from the\ntop down to the baritone part. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1620.0,1800.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Never heard of that! And he was a writer, and Mr.\nBaker still has some of those arrangements that he did.\n\nAnd that was a tremendous experience -- to be able to learn outside of school\nthe pragmatism of what we call composition -- but it's synthesis! How you put it\ntogether. And that's very interesting, because most of what musicians,\nimprovising musicians, do is analysis. I mean, you know, the decision has been\nmade that this is a course of thirty-two bars with a bridge section and that\nkind of thing. So all you have to do is think of what to play on that format.\nBut when you're writing, you have to start from the beginning and put it all\ntogether. So I prefer today to call that synthesis, rather than composition.\nThey still list it in schools as composition, but the process, the mental\nprocess, is synthesis.\n\nAnd that's very interesting because so many people who go off to school,\nespecially in the performance schools and study as composition majors, can\ngraduate and don't ever get the idea that what they're doing is putting the\nparts together to make a whole. If you're an improvising player, you take the\nwhole and divide it into parts, which is an opposite process from those who\nchoose to create a form. That's the people who write it down.\n\nSCHAAF: Mr. Baker, when you were in the Army, were you stationed in Texas with\nthe band the whole time?\n\nBAKER: No. To tell you the truth, I was with that band in Texas, but it wasn't\nlong before that band shipped out, and we went to North Africa. But they\ndissolved all them units and put us all in one unit. All the old units were\nbroken up.\n\nSo when we went to North Africa, we were put into what they call a repo-depot.\nWhat do they call them? Replacement center.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: So from the replacement center, we stayed there for a while, but we were\nunattached. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1800.0,1980.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then a band was formed. But one little thing I'd like to tell\nyou about.\n\nWhen we were getting ready to go overseas, you know, they were telling you what\nyou take and what you don't take. So first thing, they saw me. He said, you\ncan't take that saxophone. [Laughter] That saxophone in a big case! You had on\nall this equipment, you know, this big pack. The man said you can't take that!\nI'm hearing this so I said, well, I'm going to take my saxophone with me. You\nknow what I mean?\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: So when you're getting ready to get on the boat, the man calls your last\nname and you give him your first. You know, like mine is Henry. So when he says\nBaker, I say Henry N. That acknowledges the fact that I'm me. Well, he's looking\nat the paper. I had my saxophone on my head so they didn't say nothing to that.\nWell, what happened -- I guess if he was going to say something, he said, he's\nalready here now. He says, get on up there. So I got on the boat, but the reason\nwhy I'm telling you this is after we got over into North Africa, they put all of\nus in a group. So they formed different units from that group. And one of the\ngroups formed a band, and I was automatically picked, not on my ability, but\nbecause I had a horn. [Laughter]\n\nSee they didn't have a whole lot of horns over there. They had personnel. And a\nlot of saxophone players over there could play it better than me, but they\ndidn't get in that group. So when they formed this group, I got into what was\nthe 410th Army Band.\n\nNow the thing about this band, there was a band over there, and we were sort of\nreplacing them. The 41st Engineers Band, that was the band I was saying Frank\nWestin was in charge of. Because we were behind them. See eventually they went\nup to the front line or wherever they went. Then they came on back to America.\nSo our band was behind their band. So because I had that horn, that enabled me\nto stay, plus I had to practice to make sure that I was good enough to be in the\nband. And I accomplished that.\n\nI played in Italy. We left North Africa and went to Italy, but we were always\nbehind the troops.\n\nSCHAAF: That's a good place to be.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. Well, then our services became acceptable as special services for\nthe troops. Because what we did -- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1980.0,2160.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we didn't play music for the Army, but we\nplayed for the recreation of the troops. In the evenings we played dances, and\nwe went all around Italy. You know what I mean? And we got a little change for\nit too, you know. There wasn't a whole lot of bands over there so it was us.\nThey had to come to us, you know, and that was our job.\n\nSCHAAF: So what, what were the cities like?\n\nBAKER: Just like in the country.\n\nSCHAAF: The war wasn't even over.\n\nBAKER: The war wasn't over, but we were behind the lines. You know. First of\nall, we were going through a thing where the people in America were hollering\nlet the Black troops fight. So Americans decided to let them fight. So they sent\nthe 92nd Division up there, which was an infantry division, they sent them up\nthere in Italy -- up there in the mountains -- to fight. But they really were\nsending them up there to keep them out of the limelight.\n\nAnd we were the back-up, behind up. So there wasn't no fighting going on. Every\ntime the 92nd made a move, they conquered. Now that went on until the war was\nover, and they were bringing the Germans out of the hills and all. And it was\nnothing, just the fact that we were occupying Italy, and we were in Geneva, no,\nnot Geneva is in Switzerland. Genoa. Genoa, Leghorn, and where the leaning tower\nis, Pisa, and Rome. We went to Rome, and then we stayed in a spot where we could\nin the afternoons, say like four or five o'clock after dinner, we'd get in the\ntruck and take the band three to four times a week to a different outfit and\nplay dances for them. You know, these guys they're in this village. They own\neverything in the village. So the people really came down there to get some\nfood, cause they fed the people. And we played music.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: And we played music. And that was what we did. I guess I was in Italy for\na year and then we came back to the States. When we came back to the States, we\nwas disbanded, you know. But while we were doing all that, this gave us a chance\nas an individual to decide what are you going to do with your life. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=2160.0,2340.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'm\ntwenty-three years old, you know what I mean? Before that I didn't want to do\nnothing with my life. There was nothing exciting or interesting.\n\nBut the Army did a lot for me as an individual. It made me decide on what\ndirection I wanted to go. And I really wanted to go to music. You know, but it\nwasn't paying enough. I had to have something else to do. Somehow or another, I\ndon't know where it came from, but business was sort of my thing. I kept\nsneaking into learning about business. Well, in Baltimore a black teenager didn't have too much -- it was some potential, I'm not going to say\nthere was none, but it wasn't openly. You had to try to make out something for yourself.\n\nWe took all kind of jobs. I wasn't going to be no shoe shine boy all my life,\nbut I'd take a shoe shine job. I took a shoe shine boy job to put some money in\nmy pocket. So I developed a taste for money. I knew I had to have it.\n\nOf course, now is different. The cost of living is very high. But back there in\nthem days, if you made ten dollars a week, that was a whole lot of money. And I\nwas making ten and fifteen dollars a week. [Laughter]\n\nSCHAAF: I was curious. I mean, here you are, over in Italy, in your very early\ntwenties, and you lived in very, very segregated Baltimore.\n\nBAKER: Well, it was segregated, but it was accepted. All this was accepted. You\ngrew up this way. There was always challenges back and forth. But it wasn't\nreally out in the open that I'm going to change this and change that.\n\nSCHAAF: But then to go to Europe where attitudes must have been.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. But remember that we're living out in the country in Europe. You\nknow what I mean. We went into the city occasionally where nobody looked upon\nyou as anything that different. You weren't trying to crash society or anything.\nYou weren't trying to get into no schools or nothing. You were in the Army. You\nwere a soldier and the Army's got its rules and regulations.\n\nIn fact, they straightened your head out from the beginning. [Laughter]\nRegardless of what you think is the reason, that's what the Army says. That's\nwhat it is, unless you're just a defiant person.\n\nSCHAAF: Well, what do you see as the big changes that took place in Baltimore\nbefore you went into the military and after you came back?\n\nBAKER: Well, after.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=2340.0,2520.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: What kind of experiences were you having in terms of music and the\ncultural life of the city?\n\nBAKER: Well, before I went in the Army, I didn't have many musical experiences.\nI just knew about it. But what Stone was talking about, this was after the war.\nThe music started changing. The big bands were diminishing, and the little band\nwas coming about.\n\nThe little band brought about individuality. The musicianship, the bar was\nhigher. You had to do more with a four piece band than you did with a fourteen\npiece band because it was all written out for you. But with the four or five\npiece band, you had to improvise, you know. So that raised your level.\n\nSo then I got very interested. Because there was a separation there between the\nmusicians who want to learn and go forward and the ones who were going to stand\nstill. So we had a little thing going on where, in my store, was a bunch of guys\nthat was trying to go forward. We exchanged ideas; we told each other different\nthings to try, and the rest of the music I would have to say was standing still.\n\nMusicians in Baltimore -- very slow atmosphere, you know. And it wasn't that\nmany so it was easily identified. Oh yeah, you hang out at Baker's. Oh yeah,\nyou're one of Baker's musicians -- you know what I mean. And we had a little\ngroup going on, and we exchanged ideas with each other. You know, we could ask\neach other certain things, and somebody in the group had an answer. And if it\ndidn't have an answer, when so and so came to town, we'd find out what the\nchanges were or what the procedure was.\n\nSo we had a good musical atmosphere in that little store. And all the main\nmusicians, Miles Davis, Red Garland, John Coltrane, Clifford Brown, they all\ncame through that store.\n\nSTONE: That's right.\n\nBAKER: At different times, you know. Sometimes they'd spend all day.\n\nSTONE: Now here's the thing you must get in here. Not only did they come through\nthere, but frequently you had to dress them.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I had the clothing of the musicians. At the time of my\nexistence in the store, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=2520.0,2700.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the three-button suit was a label of the jazz musician.\nThe jazz musician was a well- dressed man. Yeah. Oh yeah, he was well dressed.\nAnd he didn't give up on the bandstand. In fact, he had uniforms, you know. In\nfact, when Miles Davis started that first group here, I got them their uniform,\na blue blazer and a gray flannel slacks. When they left here, they went to\nCalifornia. When they came here, they was just getting started.\n\nBut anyway, they used to buy clothes. I got to tell you this: I had a job. I had\nto have a job, I wasn't making no money. I had a job working for Joseph Banks,\nwhich is a very big company now. Well, at the time I was looking for somebody,\nBaltimore was a well-known clothing area. And I was looking for somebody, and I\nmet Joseph Banks. They had a little place down there on Redwood Street, and I\nwas going in there, and I got to talking to him, you know, and I told him. He\nwas just beginning to switch from manufacture to retail. And he was doing both.\nHe was selling his merchandise. From what I heard, a lot of the major stores had\ncanceled out on him and left him a large inventory, and he was sort of forced to\nretail it to survive.\n\nSo anyway, I met Joseph. I didn't meet Joseph Banks, [I met] his son. Joseph\nBanks was the father. He was paralyzed, and he used to sit at the end of the\ntable. I met his son, his name was Howard. And Howard used to sell me one suit.\nIf I needed two suits, he'd sell me two suits, you know.\n\nSo the point I want to get to was there was a time where his clothing was in\ndemand (and this is in the early '50s), and he didn't sell to nobody in\nBaltimore but me, because his competitors were mostly Jewish. They had a falling\nout. And he didn't do any business with them, and plus he was developing his\nretail. But I was no threat. I'm just a little guy who wants a suit every now\nand then. So, you know, he'd sell me the suit. And sometimes I didn't have to\ngive him the money. I would take two suits, but I would always bring him the\nmoney the next day, because when I took two suits I knew where I was going to\nget the money. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=2700.0,2880.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/transcript/30551/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So we had a, maybe a seventy-five, eighty dollar suit that we're\nselling for forty-one, forty-five. And after the guys saw the merchandise, you know.\n\nWell, the musicians coming from New York, which is much further advanced in\neverything than what's in Baltimore, that's all they wanted was that\nthree-button suit. So when they saw that I had the contact and you could get\nthem in Baltimore for forty-two dollars, half price, Miles came down here and\nbought two or three suits. Well, when they would come to town, most of them at\nthat particular time I sold suits to. Jimmie Heath. I remember Jimmie Heath and\nKenny Dorham. I sold them both suits. And then I was helping to bring the\nmusicians to Baltimore.\n\nWhen I say helping, I was finding jobs for them. You know. I was into a lot from\nthe beginning.\n\nSCHAAF: Well, I never would have thought of Joseph Banks as the tailor to the\njazz age.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah, because I was the one. Well, I believed in Joseph Banks, you\nknow, because I liked their clothes. But Joseph Banks is a big company now.\nThey've got it, you know. I leftthem. I didn't see no future for me. And then I\nwas kind of hooked on music a little bit too. But me and the family, we got\nalong very, very well.\n\nAnd I was lucky enough to -- he told me one time, he said taste is not something\nthat you acquire. He said to me that I had good taste as far as clothes was\nconcerned. He said you're born with it. He said, it's not something that you\nread in the books. When he would go to New York","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=2880.0,3060.0"}]},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Henry Baker and Reppard Stone oral history, 2002 August 20 07-26-2022 13:28 [Index]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Stone and Baker's early involvement in music ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=208.0,821.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Stone and Baker describe their early family lives and how they came to learn to play their instruments.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=208.0,821.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: Well, Dr. Stone, your own musical ability is pretty impressive. Where did you grow up, and when did you get start becoming involved in music? STONE: I would like to start before that.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=208.0,821.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"After the Army / Baker's store","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=821.0,1601.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker reflects on the steps he took after leaving the Army to continue his involvement in music in the city of Baltimore. Baker also describes the store he opened on Pennsylvania Avenue, and Stone reflects on the affect the store had on his career. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=821.0,1601.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BAKER: ... I stayed in there three years, and then I started thinking about what am I gonna do. Well, I was married so I couldn't leave the city...","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=821.0,1601.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Stone and Baker first meeting / Synthesis over composition","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1601.0,1923.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Stone describes how he came to meet Baker in Baltimore. Stone discusses his view of composition being synthesis. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1601.0,1923.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: So I'd like to go back a little bit. Can you tell me how you came to meet Mr. Baker when you came to Baltimore? STONE: This is interesting. BAKER: Yeah, how did you meet me?","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1601.0,1923.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker's time in the Army","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1923.0,2425.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker describes his time in the Army bands he was assigned to in his units. Baker also reflects on the effect the Army had on his life's direction. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1923.0,2425.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: Mr. Baker, when you were in the Army, were you stationed in Texas with the band the whole time?","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=1923.0,2425.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Segregation in the Army / Changes in musical culture after the war","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=2425.0,2681.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker discusses the feeling of acceptance towards segregation in the Army and in Europe. Baker also describes how the changing musical climate after his time in the army prompted his interest in becoming more involved. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=2425.0,2681.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: I was curious. I mean, here you are, over in Italy, in your very early twenties, and you lived in very, very segregated Baltimore.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=2425.0,2681.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker's store and Joseph Banks","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=2681.0,3007.03347"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker describes his connection to Joseph Banks and how that contributed to his store's success. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=2681.0,3007.03347"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372/index/51793/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"STONE: Now here's the thing you must get in here. Not only did they come through there, but frequently you had to dress them.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117372#t=2681.0,3007.03347"}]}]},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 2 of 3 - pims0091_BakerH-1_02.mp3"]},"duration":2914.03755,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/373/small/baker_and_stone_photoshop_jpeg.jpg?1649796381","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/content/2/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-peabody.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/373/original/pims0091_BakerH-1_02.mp3?1624270760","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2914.03755,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["BakerH-StoneR-2_20220111 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BAKER: to buy clothes for the company, he would sit down with all the salesmen.\nHe would be going to this clothing house, and they would have swatches, one\npiece of cloth maybe as big as this table, and they'd have about twenty patterns\nin there, and he'd ask you to pick out the ones that you'd think would be good\nfor the spring and be good for the fall. And fortunately I would pick out\nnothing but winners. [Laughter] And fortunately, you know, I'd pick out nothing\nbut winners! I don't know how I did it, but I see a piece of goods over there,\nI'd say oh yeah -- that! That's a nice piece there.\n\nAnd Miles, every time he'd come back, he'd say you know what, you're the winner. [Laughter]\n\nAnd so we had a good relationship. I worked for him. When they started that\nbusiness, they\n\nstarted on what was called Hopkins Place. It's across the street from Day's\nVillage. And Howard Banks, a fellow salesman named Schockey, Howard, myself, and\nLeonard Ginsberg, we had about four salesmen, and I was one of them. And we\ndidn't do nothing but sell suits and sport coats. We didn't carry no shirts or\nnothing, you know.\n\nI was there from the beginning. And then they got swelled up because what\nhappened when them people from Washington with all that money , senators and\nall, when they found out about this wholesale place, they were jammed and packed\nall the time. Jammed and packed. And that was the beginning of that business.\nAnd today they're a billion-dollar company, you know.\n\nI worked for them for about two years. I worked there, and I sold suits in the\nevening. But it wasn't enough to keep me going. And then Mondawmin [Mall] was\nbuilt in 1955. When Mondawmin was built that was the end of Pennsylvania Avenue.\nYou couldn't see it then, but now you can look back and say Mondawmin took the\nbusiness away from that area. And then the\n\nbottom part of the Avenue started moving north. Everything in this particular\ncity moved north. Mondawmin's still here because it's right in the center. But\nall those stores down there, they eventually all went out of business.\n\nNow it's a troubled area. Even Lafayette Market is not surviving, or can hardly\nsurvive we should say.\n\nSo 1955, '56 I was out of business. The music business never did pay me enough\nmoney to live off, you know.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=0.0,180.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: But when you came back, both of you, at the end of World War II,\nPennsylvania Avenue must have been in its absolute glory days.\n\nBAKER: It was. It was. Everything we had was up there. Because you got to\nremember this, if you look at it from a business point of view, you had a huge\nblack population in the city. And nobody wanted their money. I mean really went\nout and said give me your money. So when the word integration came in, and the\nguy over there say, well you come eat in my restaurant. Well, his restaurant was\nbetter than this lady's restaurant over here. So the business went to the white\nowners, and they found out it wasn't so bad after all to get that money.\n\nSo that actually put the black owners out of business. But as long as it was\nsegregated, the blacks were getting stronger businesswise, economically. Because\nthey had all the business, and also they were beginning to buy property. They\nwere doing the usual things that capitalists and the capitalistic form of\ngovernment provides for the low-income people. But once integration came, that\nweakened the Black investor.\n\nSTONE: Well, while we're on this subject, the thing is, really, it wasn't\nintegration so much as the post-war efforts to reward the veterans. When they\npassed these GI Bills, and you could either go to school and get paid or you\ncould buy a house.\n\nNow I'm of the impression that when the war started, the Black population went\nup to about Fulton Avenue and stopped.\n\nBAKER: Go ahead, stopped there anyway.\n\nSTONE: Right. Okay. So what happened is, the war caused the movement of people\nhere, especially the biggest employer, Bethlehem Steel, was hiring African\nAmericans out of North Carolina, Virginia, South Carolina, and they were just\ncoming in droves. They had to have somewhere to stay. So what this did is say\nsomebody who could buy a house, say like Baker, they'd push you past Fulton Avenue\n\nBAKER: Yeah.\n\nSTONE: -- to buy a house. And what happens is.\n\nBAKER: Well, excuse me for cutting you off, but when you say buy the house, then\nthere were some ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=180.0,360.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"white owners that took advantage of that, and they made it\npossible for you to buy the house. Even though they charged a little more\ninterest, but they still provided the neighborhoods to become integrated. This\nman down there on Franklin Street, Goldseker, he had houses all over the city\nthat people could pay for by the week. And today he rewards the black community\n-- even Morgan College. Every now and then I see donations from the Goldseker Foundation.\n\nSTONE: Goldseker Foundation. I know.\n\nBAKER: That was something that happened, but you couldn't keep it from\nhappening. There was so many people in the area, they had to purchase\n\nSTONE: Right. And the movement out also forced a lot of people of European\ndecent out. They moved further out.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah. Everything's going out.\n\nSCHAAF: The white flight.\n\nSTONE: Yeah. White flight.\n\nBAKER: That's the beginning of Towson and all of them.\n\nSTONE: Now you see the reason I raise this point is I don't want you to get the\nidea that all of a sudden somebody said, you know, let's integrate and it\nhappened. No. It was just a matter of money.\n\nBAKER: That's all.\n\nSTONE: That it took place -- I can remember how we used to go to Mr. Baker's\nhouse, and you'd pass Fulton Avenue. It was a big thing then, you know.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah.\n\nSCHAAF: Now where was this happening?\n\nBAKER: Well, that was one of the houses that I had. I had a couple of them.\nSTONE: I forgot the name of that street.\n\nBAKER: Bryant Avenue.\n\nSTONE: Bryant Avenue.\n\nBAKER: Yeah.\n\nSCHAAF: Well, World War II provided a lot of benefits. Baltimore Symphony\nOrchestra -- if you were a woman, forget it. You couldn't play in many\norchestras all across the country. They were male only until they couldn't fill\nthose chairs with male musicians, and, then women were able to get in. And women\nwere suddenly allowed in the defense industry here. Ruth Van Hulsteyn, who was\none of the first women violinists in the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra worked at\nBendix building radios with Tracy McCleary.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: With Tracy?\n\nSCHAAF: Neither one of them would have been allowed in that industry before\nWorld War II.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: Well, Tracy's still living isn't he?\n\nSTONE: Yeah.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=360.0,540.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BAKER: Tracy's got to be in his nineties.\n\nSTONE: You know, if I could, I'd like to take Mr. Baker on a trip up\nPennsylvania Avenue, so he can bring out some memories of very significant\nevenings. For instance, to people traveling to Pennsylvania Avenue, the 21\ntrolley was a big thing. And it'd pull up at [Dolphin Street?].\n\nBecause then you could move north on Pennsylvania Avenue, and that first block\nwas important. It's a school there now. All of that's gone. But there was a very\nfamous hall on the west side of the street, up on the second floor. What was\nthat hall called?\n\nBAKER: Pythian Castle. Where we used to go and play sometimes? \nSTONE: No. No. No.\n\nBAKER: Oh, the New Albert.\n\nSTONE: New Albert.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. Well, that's where the bands used to go.\n\nSTONE: Right. Now you see the reason I mention this is even though I knew him, I\nwent there to see Count Basie's movement back to the big band from the little\nnine-piece group. And his drawing card were the two Franks, Frank Foster and\nFrank Wess.\n\nBAKER: Frank Wess, yeah.\n\nSTONE: And I went to that concert, and, you know, they had a balcony in there.\n\nBAKER: Let me ask you something. Did Miles sit in that band that night we were there?\n\nSTONE: I don't recall.\n\nBAKER: Go ahead.\n\nSTONE: But he was very instrumental in booking that group in there -- Baker was.\n\nBAKER: Yeah, I was.\n\nSTONE: And this was the last really important event to happen in that hall.\n\nBAKER: It was on a weeknight.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: I think we got him for six hundred dollars.\n\nSTONE: Now, the thing that's interesting is, if you read the literature,\nFletcher Henderson was on his way to that same hall to play in 1933 and was\ninvolved in a Pennsylvania Railroad wreck on the way to Baltimore, and he as\nsuch and his musicians were paid more for being in the accident than they would\nhave been paid in New Albert Hall, you know.\n\nNow it's interesting, you know, see this is the kind of stuff that's not in\nbooks -- facts that are really ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=540.0,720.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"interesting. Now one of the things is that we had\na gentleman down there named Dixon. He had a club, and the second and third\nfloors he had what he called a hotel.\n\nBAKER: Ike Dixon.\n\nSTONE: Ike Dixon. The man had to sons. Right. Who are still around I think.\n\nBAKER: One of them died.\n\nSTONE: One of them died?\n\nBAKER: Yeah. But little Ike is still living.\n\nSTONE: Right. Okay. Now Ike Dixon, as such, always kept good entertainment in\nhis club. And I remember all of the mirrors. The place was covered with mirrors,\nand how I sat at the piano one day in there, and Miles Davis came in. And he\nwanted to know what I was doing, and I told him that I was writing. He was\nfascinated, and he stayed there for quite some time and watched me working. He\ntalked and that kind of thing, and I was just elated. That here I was in the\nComedy Club -- that's what it was called, you know -- talking with Miles Davis.\nThat just wiped me out.\n\nAnd, of course, on the other side of the street was the northwestern police\nstation. Didn't have any bad policemen then either.\n\nBAKER: No. You might have had five or six, but they weren't around the place.\n\nSTONE: And we had the Royal Theater. The Royal Theater was a part of a circuit.\nThey called it TOBA.\n\nSCHAAF: Tough on Black asses\n\nSTONE: That's it. I didn't want to say it.\n\nBAKER: What was it?\n\nSTONE: Tough on black asses. [Laughter] I thought she'd know it. So what\nhappened was they would come down, you know, start from Apollo, worked the Earl\nin Philly.\n\nBAKER: And then they went to the Earl.\n\nSTONE: And then from the Earl they would go all the way to Washington to the\nHoward because Baltimore had the worst audiences. If you weren't good, they'd\nthrow things on the stage at you and boo you and that kind of thing. So it was\nlike make Baltimore the last stop.\n\nAnd then, according to how you made out with Baltimore audiences, would be the\ndecision whether they would send you west to Detroit and Chicago and this kind\nof thing. So they had this circuit.\n\nNow this is very important for our generation because the younger musicians came\nthrough playing the theater. The night clubs were not just the only place they\ncame through. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=720.0,900.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In fact, I watched Lionel Hampton introduce someone called Betty\nBebop Carter.\n\nBAKER: Betty Carter. Yeah. Betty Bebop.\n\nSTONE: Right. That's what he called her because of her scat singing. Sounded\nlike somebody playing a bebop instrument. She went on to become a great star. I\nsaw Ella Fitzgerald down there and the pianist in the band was John Lewis, who\nwent on to become a great international star.\n\nSo what I'm trying to say is that the best in Black entertainment came through\nhere. That was really a help for us young guys -- to give us incentive to go on\nand do things. Of course, then later on Motown came in.\n\nBAKER: Let me just hold you for a minute. Before that era that he's speaking\nabout, we had an era when I was maybe fifteen or sixteen years old where the\nbands came here and played in the New Albert.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: See, now you're talking about that time that Basie was there.\n\nSTONE: That's the end of it.\n\nBAKER: That was jazz. But before that, they used to have dances. The dances --\nthe basic concept was the people who wanted to listen to the music would sit up\nfront, and the people behind the chairs were the dancers. That way we had a\ncycle of bands such as -- well Count Basie wasn't even around then.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: We're talking about Jimmy Lunceford, we're talking about Erskine Hawkins.\nDuke Ellington never played any of those dances.\n\nSTONE: Lucky Milander.\n\nBAKER: Lucky Milander. And you had a band called the Sunset Row. You had a\ncircuit of bands. And then, of course, sometimes white bands would come in --\nCharlie Barnet, Tommy Dorsey. And right next door to the Royal Theater was\nanother hall upstairs, that was called the Strand.\n\nAnd these places -- come to think of it, I have to take that back. Count Basie\ndid come because I used to wait and take Lester's [Lester Young] horn upstairs.\n[Laughter] That's how I used to get in. [Laughter]\n\nOh yeah, he'd wait for me. But that was our little thing, as youngsters. But we\nhad a following for these bands, and some of us, including myself, we knew every\nmember in the band. We didn't know them that well, but we knew their names. And\nwe had a little arguments outside. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=900.0,1080.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Well, who plays sax for?\n\nAnd I could tell you who in every band. Gee, I could even tell you who the\narranger was. But that was our little thing growing up. That went on for quite a\nlittle while. And, of course, the dances started having rumbles, and that cut\nthem out. But the theater was still going on. I can't even tell you how far back\nthe theater goes.\n\nSCHAAF: Well, and there was the Regent.\n\nBAKER: Well, the Regent was a picture house.\n\nSTONE: That was the movies.\n\nSCHAAF: But early on didn't they have?\n\nBAKER: Nah. They may have had something. Nothing much. Nothing much. But I can\nremember seeing Louis Armstrong.\n\nSCHAAF: At the New Albert?\n\nBAKER: No. At the Royal.\n\nSTONE: At the Royal.\n\nBAKER: I saw Lunceford, Duke -- just about anybody that had a name from the\nrecords, you know. And they were good shows. I mean very good shows. Until the\nbirds came in. When I say the birds, I'm thinking about the groups, the\nSwallows, the Orioles. When they came in, the quality of the shows went down.\n\nBut those early shows, the comedians, \"Pigmeat\", and what's going 'round -- they\nwere fantastic. Butter Beans and Suzie. All them acts, they all came through\nBaltimore. Cause it was like you said, it was a circuit. They left New York,\nthey formed a show in New York, went to Philadelphia, went to the Howard. It was\na circuit.\n\nSTONE: And then went west.\n\nBAKER: Yeah.\n\nSCHAAF: But there were a couple of places that I'd like you to talk a little bit\nabout. One, you had mentioned Skateland where they had music and jazz.\n\nBAKER: Yeah, I remember Skateland.\n\nSCHAAF: And girls that jitterbugged on roller skates.\n\nBAKER: That was on Pennsylvania Avenue.\n\nSCHAAF: Now, who played there?\n\nBAKER: I saw Stan Getz there one time.\n\nSTONE: But the group that fascinated me, and they had them more than once.\n\nBAKER: Who?\n\nSTONE: Was Gene Ammons and Sonny Stitt.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah. Oh that was a hard bop group.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: They were swingers. Yeah.\n\nSTONE: It was just a thrill to be able to talk to the people on that band cause\nevery player in that band was a terrific improviser and player. It was awesome.\nAnd they would be down.\n\nBAKER: Well, that was sort of like the beginning. Well, really Basie started the\ntwo tenor players, with Lester and Hershel Evans. You know, and then Eckstine\ncame with Dexter Gordon. But this small group ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=1080.0,1260.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"what he's speaking about, with\nGene Ammons and Sonny Stitt, we saw them. Hey look. Plus across the street from\nmy store there was a place called Gamby's, and they used to be over there.\n\nAnd when the bands used to come to the nightclubs, they came on Tuesdays and\nstayed until Sunday. And we were there every night. You know, every night! And\nwe got a chance to talk to the musicians and ask them about different things.\nSome of them were very helpful.\n\nThen there was [James] Moody's band.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: That was swinging too. Moody had a swinging band. And the Comedy Club\nkept a little something going all the time.\n\nSCHAAF: Well, Tracy had the band at the Comedy Club.\n\nBAKER: Huh?\n\nSCHAAF: Tracy McCleary.\n\nBAKER: No, not at the Comedy Club.\n\nSCHAAF: He said he did.\n\nBAKER: He was at the Royal. I was in that band at the Royal Theater.\n\nSCHAAF: I think he said when he first came he worked there.\n\nBAKER: Oh well, you know, let me say this to you. When he first came here, those\nbands, they weren't much of bands. I don't want to knock them.\n\nSCHAAF: Well, he did mention that.\n\nBAKER: I don't want to knock them. You know what I mean, but they were just bands.\n\nSCHAAF: That's what he said.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. That's all it was. But these bands we're talking about now were\nplayers. Gene Ammons and Sonny Stitt would be playing all night long.\n\nSTONE: It was just awesome. I used to be spellbound to listen to them when they\nwould do their dialogue exchanges. You know. During the dialogue they would say\n\"let's eights.\" And that would go on maybe for ten minutes. \"Fours.\" And then\nthey'd say \"twos.\" [Laughter] And then they would just be playing over each\nother. And we were just in awe of that group. In fact, Ammons even drew old Don\nBailey out of here with that band for a while.\n\nAnd for us, it sort of gave us a push technically. We started to play on a\nhigher level after having contact with them. And one of my favorite memories was\nof Baker one day walking out of store with his horn, and he said he was going to\nthe repair shop. And Sonny Stitts said let me see it. [Laughter] He was on the\nsidewalk out in front of his haberdashery with a crowd around. He's just playing\nthe horn. He said, well you can take it, but I don't think there's anything\nwrong with it. [Laughter]\n\nBAKER: First time I met Sonny Stitt, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=1260.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we had a little quartet in the Frolic, and\nSonny was working in the theater, you know. So he came in and stood on the side.\nSo he came up there and whispered in my ear, he said, can I play one? I said,\nyeah, Sonny. You can play one. [Laughter]\n\nSCHAAF: Where was this?\n\nBAKER: Club Frolic. It was a little club across the street from the Royal\nTheater. Sonny came in and he -- well, you know at the time they'd lock their\ninstruments up when they got off from work. Yeah, because they were all\ndangerous with them instruments. They'd steal them and pawn them, you know.\n\nSo he came in there that night, and he whispered in my ear. I knew who he was. I\nsaid, yeah, Sonny Stitt, you can play.\n\nSCHAAF: Now was the Avenue Bar a part of this?\n\nBAKER: Avenue Bar? Never had much of a music thing going on. They had bands.\nTell you the truth about it, I don't know if I ever told Stone or not, but one\nof the best saxophone players I ever heard worked played in the Avenue Bar. He\nwas a tremendous saxophone.\n\nSCHAAF: And who was that?\n\nBAKER: His name was Ross. Long before you came to Baltimore. I'll tell you how\nbad he was. He had the train sounds in the thirds. He had the high register,\nlarge tenor sound. His name was Ross. He came out of a musical family in\nWashington. That's where he came from. And he worked the Avenue for, when I came\nout of the Army (I came out of the Army in '46), and he was working in there,\nbut he had been in there.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: But he was an alcoholic, you know.\n\nSTONE: I'm glad you mentioned that because following him was another tenor\nsaxophone player out of Washington named Bill Swindell. And Bill Swindell --\n\nBAKER: But Swindell made his rep as an alto player.\n\nSTONE: Right. But he had the local young Turks, guys who played with us worked\nin there with him. Everybody around him was much younger than he was.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah. Well, he was in Milander's band you know.\n\nSTONE: It's really interesting that some of these places were never written\nabout because the media was not interested in those kinds of activities. And let\nme say this: segregation was never practiced on the Avenue. We saw white couples.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah. Well.\n\nSTONE: They would come, you know, they would come, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=1440.0,1620.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and they would enjoy just\nlike everybody else.\n\nBAKER: The whites, the white trade took over the Tijuana.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: You know, they took it over. And the Tijuana was really -- I don't know\nif you can remember or not -- but it was really the first jazz club in Baltimore.\n\nSTONE: First-class jazz club.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. And the whites took over, took over the Tijuana. I brought Bird in\nthere in '52.\n\nSCHAAF: What about the Ritz? What was that like?\n\nBAKER: The what?\n\nSCHAAF: The Ritz.\n\nBAKER: Well, it was more of a dance. Wait a minute now, there was a couple of\nRitzes, you know, but the Ritz downtown?\n\nSCHAAF: Right.\n\nBAKER: That was more of a dance club. Beginning of the, what do you call it,\ndisco? That was kind of beginning of that. They had Arthur [?] down there one\ntime. That was the old Playboy Club. You don't remember the Playboy? You weren't\naround here then.\n\nSCHAAF: I do remember that.\n\nBAKER: You remember. Well, that's what the Ritz was.\n\nSCHAAF: Jimmie Wells used to play down there.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. You know Jimmie Wells?\n\nSCHAAF: I do indeed.\n\nSTONE: You know what's interesting too is that while Bird [Charlie Parker]\nworked up at Tijuana for years, Sticks Dorn and I took Bird over to our house.\nYou know, he was going back to New York every day, every night.\n\nBAKER: On the rails. I took him to the train station damn near every night.\n\nSTONE: Sticks Dorn and I said, man, let's take Bird over to our place. We had a\nplace over in East Baltimore.\n\nBAKER: Yeah.\n\nSTONE: And we took him over there and we didn't sleep all night because the guys\nthat had been in combat told us that before these guys would die said they would\nalways, you know, like ahhhh inhale and it would be over. And man, Bird would\ninhale, ahhhh, and you wouldn't hear any breathing. [Laughter] Our eyes would\nget big.\n\nBut that for me was a real nice place because we had Charlie Mingus and the\nfellows off his band come by to that apartment and what not.\n\nBAKER: You all had a little thing going.\n\nSTONE: To be able to stay right on top of what was going on in New York.\n\nBAKER: Baltimore had it going on around here for a while, but somebody had to be\ndoing something to make it go.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: Then the Left Bank [Jazz Society] came along, and they made some\ncontributions as far as bringing New York artists to Baltimore. They had a\nlittle run there. [Pause] Have you talked to Wells lately?\n\nSTONE: Yeah. Yeah.\n\nBAKER: That's good.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=1620.0,1800.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: Now, I wanted to ask. You were a member of the Musicians Union, 543. And\nwere you [Baker] a member of the Musicians Union?\n\nBAKER: 543.\n\nSCHAAF: So you both were, you both joined before the --\n\nBAKER: Merger.\n\nSCHAAF: Before the merger of the two unions.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah.\n\nSTONE: Oh yeah.\n\nSCHAAF: Can you tell me, do you recall the feeling in the community among the\nmembers of the union about the joining together?\n\nBAKER: We didn't associate with them too much because they were basically\nalcoholics. You know? They had a club house about a block from my store, and we\ndidn't go up there.\n\nSTONE: And most of the musicians in there\n\nBAKER: Were older guys.\n\nSTONE: Were older, and they played with Rivers Chambers.\n\nBAKER: They played a different kind of music.\n\nSTONE: They played different kind of music. And they played for Rivers Chambers\nand worked some of the places on Baltimore Street. One of the things that our\ngeneration -- it was like we were liberated from Baltimore Street.\n\nBAKER: Really.\n\nSTONE: Really. We didn't have to go down there.\n\nBAKER: It was a drag to go down there.\n\nSTONE: We didn't want to go down there, you know. It was so bad that some clubs\neven had sheets up in front of the band. The band was playing for strip dancers,\nbut they couldn't be seen because they put a sheet up there. They didn't want\nthem to see that the musicians were Black musicians. That's Baltimore Street.\n\nAnd so one thing our generation said was we weren't going down on Baltimore\nStreet. There were a lot who did, but basically we didn't.\n\nBAKER: Only went down there to get a job if you needed the money.\n\nSTONE: Right. I remember Baker working there one time.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. I went down there.\n\nSTONE: I don't know the club, but he had a trumpet player with him who's from\nCleveland, Ohio.\n\nBAKER: Hardman.\n\nSTONE: Bill Hardman. Yeah. And he went on to become a very famous, died in\nParis, and was given a pauper's grave.\n\nBAKER: But let me tell you something. One night when we were working on\nBaltimore Street, which is the night I shall never forget. Clifford Browncame\nin. Clifford Brown came down there to say hello to us. So we got him to get up\non the bandstand, and he played \"Body and Soul.\" ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=1800.0,1980.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the people who were in the\nplace didn't pay our band no mind. You know, our band was just there to keep the\ndrinks flowing.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: You know what I mean. But Clifford Brown got there and played \"Body and\nSoul\" that night, all them non-music lovers stopped drinking and looked at that\nboy play that And that was, that was maybe in '52 or '53, you know. We had a\nlittle band down there. But Clifford made them stop doing everything.\n\nSTONE: He was very commanding.\n\nBAKER: Oh boy.\n\nSTONE: A part of it, since we're on this, is that Clifford too was very\nspiritual. I mean, he played with the kind of enthusiasm that goes with hand\nclapping and shouting. That kind of thing.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah.\n\nSTONE: And he could just take an audience. He was actually years ahead of his age.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah he was.\n\nSTONE: Musically.\n\nBAKER: Today. I heard something the other day by him, and it sounded like\nsomebody recorded it yesterday. You know, playing ninety miles an hour. Clifford\nwas a bad trumpet player. And a nice person.\n\nSTONE: Right. You know music couldn't sustain that for this reason. What we are\ntalking about in these people is virtuoso display. It wasn't just a matter of\nplaying fast, but it was fast with accuracy. That was the catch. The accuracy.\nYou know, I could find you a fifteen year old that could play as fast as John\nColtrane, but all the notes would be wrong.\n\nOkay. So you say, well, now wait a minute. Here's a young guy, you know, and he\ncomes along and he's playing all of this. And the accuracy was just too much.\nAnd so the next generation just gave up. Oh man, we ain't gonna do that! That's\ntoo much! [Laughter] So much so that I would say from the '50s it was almost\nlike downhill from the technical side of it. The industry really did that to\nthem because the interest was shifting to recording vocal groups, and nobody was\ninterested in jazz but these little outlaw kind of companies.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=1980.0,2160.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"They would walk in off the street sometimes, do a record session, and they took\nadvantage of them because some of them had habits, and they knew they needed the\nmoney badly. So they would take them into the studio and record them and pay\nthem on the spot. No royalties or nothing. That's the disadvantage of --.\n\nBAKER: Oh they took advantage of them.\n\nSTONE: Yeah. Of all of them.\n\nSCHAAF: But it's ironic that the quality of the playing diminished at that\npoint. Because it was just at that point when the opportunities for music\neducation had just really flowered and opened up. And, I mean, by '47 Peabody\nwas admitting African-American students, and of course they always could go up\nto Juilliard.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. That's one in a thousand.\n\nSTONE: That's correct.\n\nSTONE: There were a few that went to the Eastman School under sponsorship.\n\nBAKER: Eastman. Yeah, up in Rochester.\n\nSTONE: Up in Rochester. Well, nothing remains. The only thing permanent is\nchange. And what happened is, I hate to say it, but starting right now in the\ntwenty-first century. The change rate is so fast the public can't keep up with\nit. For instance, I taught a young man at Howard named Mark Batzen, and he\nrecorded with one of the artists at Artscape. India Arie is her name. So the\nthing is, he's a fabulous player, but it's almost like he had to come down for\nthe people in the industry to take an interest in him. He's playing far below\nhis capabilities. And this is one of the things that's sort of sad, because I've\nsent a lot of musicians out of Baltimore who were international stars.\n\nFor instance, Peabody has Gary Thomas down there.\n\nSCHAAF: He was one of your students.\n\nSTONE: Was one of my students.\n\nBAKER: In high school.\n\nSTONE: In high school! He's in charge of the jazz program. You see, so I look on\nthat as a residue from all of these experiences Baker and I had along the Avenue\nand over time. And he knew ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=2160.0,2340.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"not only musicians, but a lot of business people.\n\nAnd Sticks Dorden likes to point out the fact that he has a photograph that you\ntook out at Scarlett's home. And he had a pool, and you were all out there in\nthe water.\n\nBAKER: You got the photograph?\n\nSTONE: Sticks Dorden.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah.\n\nSTONE: And what happened.\n\nBAKER: That was in the '50s.\n\nSTONE: Yeah. See, and so what happened is that we not only got an insight into\nmusic, but we also started to get an insight into the business. Maybe I\nshouldn't tell it, but I'll tell it.\n\nBAKER: That's all right.\n\nSTONE: I got in a cab going home one night from the Avenue, and the taxi driver\nsaid, oh, what do you have in that case? I said a trombone. He said, oh, you're\nin the music business. I said, yeah. He said, how many records you have out? I\nsaid none. He said, you're not in the music business. [Laughter] But he was\ncorrect. He was absolutely correct. Just going around maybe one this week, two\nnext week. That was not being in the music business.\n\nSee, that's what Mr. Baker's been talking about when he said he couldn't make it\non music. We were not in the business aspects of music.\n\nBAKER: No, we didn't have the facilities here.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nSCHAAF: Well, and there was no safety net for the musicians. I remember being\nreally quite struck some time ago, and I wish I could remember the gentleman's\nname, but there was a little obit in the Afro-American about this man. He had\nbeen a touring musician all of his life, and he'd come back to Baltimore and had\nto work as an elevator operator for years up until he died because he had no --\n\nSTONE: Skills.\n\nSCHAAF: He had no resources after all those years on the road.\n\nBAKER: I'm trying to think who that might have been.\n\nSCHAAF: I wish I could remember his name.\n\nSTONE: But, you know, that's one of the things that I sort of fought the union\nwith is that.\n\nThey should have had more than just a little retirement plan. Because I'm\nthinking about so many of them in bad health and with no health benefits. And\ntake Melvin Spears -- he's up there in assisted living. And, you know, that's\nsad, and he played all over this city for a long time and Switzerland. And you\nsay, well, my goodness, you know, this is sad that this guy has to be placed\nsomeplace like that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=2340.0,2520.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: I saw him not too long ago. It must have been one of his last jobs\nplaying at the Governor's Mansion in Annapolis. He played like an angel.\n\nBAKER: He's in assisted living. Because somebody came in the shop, and he sent\nme a message\n\ntell me he was going to get married. Not too long ago. A lady came in and told\nme. She couldn't pronounce his name. I said Spears.\n\nSTONE: My motivation for having Mr. Baker here is that he can confirm the fact\nabout me that's not known. I did a repertory orchestra concert on Billie\nEckstine in '81, '82, somewhere like that. And he was the only person from\nBaltimore who came to that concert that I can recall. I had a jazz repertory\norchestra at Howard University before they had one at Smithsonian or in New York.\n\nWe're a funny society, if you don't do it in certain places, it's a non event.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. I got it.\n\nSTONE: See, the fact that it happened in a university was a non event. There was\nno press coverage, no television. You follow me?\n\nBAKER: You just did a concert. But your parents, they were there.\n\nSTONE: I had also Slide Hampton, the trombonist, was there. He was in town for\nsomething else, and he came by. But the reason I like to mention that is that in\nspite of all of the fine experiences I had at Howard, after thinking back to\nleaving Eastman School of Music in '75, and what was happening in '95, the gap\nwasn't closing. Nobody would listen to me. I just shut down psychologically in\nthe '96 I left. You know a whole generation of people fought for us to get ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=2520.0,2700.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"into\na lot of these places, but when we brought it back to our communities, there was\nno reception for it.\n\nSCHAAF: How do you account for that?\n\nBAKER: Well, I could say one thing. Jazz has always been a minority product.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: You never had nobody on your side. You know what I mean? When we first\nstarted, when I'd go out on a job, the owner would say to me, he said, well, why\nis the drummer hitting on that cymbal? You know what I mean? Or do you have to\nbring that big violin in? But that's because it was never accepted from the\nbeginning. And then when you get down to the main part of it, the big people\ncould never control jazz. The jazz musician was always kind of unruly. He would\ntell them in a minute, see you later.\n\nSTONE: I'm glad you mentioned that. There's an article that appeared in the\nBaltimore Sun where Wynton Marsalis is not recording because he wants a million\ndollars per session.\n\nBAKER: Wynton?\n\nSTONE: Yes.\n\nBAKER: When was this in there? I missed it.\n\nSTONE: Okay.\n\nBAKER: How long ago was this?\n\nSTONE: Last week.\n\nBAKER: Yeah, well, probably the one day I didn't read the paper.\n\nSTONE: But now, the reason I take that around with me is that they make the\npoint that it's not just Wynton -- the whole industry has just somehow decided\nthat jazz goes on the back burner. They don't want to be bothered.\n\nBAKER: No because they've got to compete too much. They can take another artist\nand bring him up and own him, and own the rights and everything.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: But the truth is, the jazz musician spent time trying to learn it\nstraight, and you don't want to give it away. And he's not gonna let anybody\ncontrol him or tell him what to play and how to play. Although he has done it,\nyou know, but he's done enough of it. He wants to be independent.\n\nSTONE: Just to show you what I mean, Gary Thomas is recording in Europe.\n\nBAKER: He's not recording around here.\n\nSTONE: Not in the States. And not only that, but the demand for jazz music is\ngreater outside of the country.\n\nBAKER: Always been, especially as far as the Blacks are concerned.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=2700.0,2880.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/transcript/35120/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: We were in Palermo [Italy] for New Year's last year, and New Year's eve\nyou couldn't walk more than a block without running into a jazz band.\n\nSTONE: No kidding.\n\nBAKER: Well, that's Europe. And you could probably find none of them here with a\ngig. [Laughter] That's jazz.\n\n[END OF SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=2880.0,3060.0"}]},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Henry Baker and Reppard Stone oral history, 2002 August 20 07-26-2022 14:19 [Index]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Effect of integration and post-war legislation on Black population","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=167.0,544.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker and Stone discuss integration and GI Bills causing black businesses going out of business and the movement of Black populations into Baltimore. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=167.0,544.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BAKER: ... So 1955, '56 I was out of business. The music business never did pay me enough money to live off, you know.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=167.0,544.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Pennsylvania Avenue memories","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=544.0,1799.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker and Stone reflect on the many different clubs and venues that existed on Pennsylvania Avenue in the past, as well as the various musicians that came through there such as Betty Carter and Ella Fitzgerald. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=544.0,1799.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"STONE: You know, if I could, I'd like to take Mr. Baker on a trip up Pennsylvania Avenue, so he can bring out some memories of very significant evenings. For instance, to people traveling to Pennsylvania Avenue, the 21 trolley was a big thing. And it'd pull up at [Dolphin Street?].","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=544.0,1799.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baltimore Street / Decline in quality ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=1799.0,2362.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker and Stone reflect on their reluctance to be around other Musicians Union, 543 members and take jobs on Baltimore Street. They also discuss how as opportunities for music education expanded, the general quality of jazz musicianship dropped. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=1799.0,2362.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: Now, I wanted to ask. You were a member of the Musicians Union, 543. And were you [Baker] a member of the Musicians Union? BAKER: 543.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=1799.0,2362.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The music business","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=2362.0,2914.03755"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker and Stone discuss the business aspects of music and how jazz music has never truly been accepted by the industry. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=2362.0,2914.03755"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373/index/51794/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"STONE: Yeah. See, and so what happened is that we not only got an insight into music, but we also started to get an insight into the business. Maybe I shouldn't tell it, but I'll tell it.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117373#t=2362.0,2914.03755"}]}]},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 3 of 3 - pims0091_BakerH-2_01.mp3"]},"duration":2773.02857,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/117/374/small/baker_and_stone_photoshop_jpeg.jpg?1649796390","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/content/3/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-peabody.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/117/374/original/pims0091_BakerH-2_01.mp3?1624270762","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2773.02857,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["BakerH-StoneR-3_20220111 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BAKER: It is pathetic. It's always been a double market.\n\nSTONE: Not only that, but one of the things that's really interesting is how\njazz crosses cultural lines. The Japanese not only have [record] labels, but\nthey would send their people from Japan all the way to the States to record\nsomebody that they want. And when the jazz artist goes over there to work, you\nmight go to work two or three cities, and you end up doing eight or ten.\n\nBecause once they hear about success in someplace like Yokohama or Tokyo or what\nnot, they line up.\n\nEven all down the coast, I'm trying to think of the guy from here, guitar\nplayer, that just came back here and opened up a studio. He was over there in\nIndonesia or something like that with a jazz group. And I think it's really\nterrible that too many Americans don't know about jazz because it was an urban\nmusic. Let's face it, and it reflected an urban culture. So people in Kansas,\nLouisiana, well not Louisiana, but far west and so forth, even say with all the\nactivity that was in California, Oregon and Washington State and what not, they\nnever had the jazz activity that they had in California. And what makes this\nsignificant is that our population disperses the people on the coasts.\n\nGreater populations are on each coast, east and west, and the middle of the\ncountry almost no population. Now the thing that's sad is a student in Kansas in\nhigh school can get better jazz training than one in Baltimore or Washington\nbecause they have summer camps for them. And they go to summer camp maybe for\ntwo weeks. [Laugher] We have nothing like that for our young people. They're\nroaming the streets in the summer. They should have a place, I would call it, as\na retreat.\n\nIn other words, take them out of their city environment, out in the country\nsomewhere, up by Hagerstown somewhere, to a music camp for two weeks. They're\nthere where they would get instruction, and we would have something -- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=0.0,180.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"how would\nyou put it, artists in residence. So let us say Wynton Marsalis came there for a\nweek just so they could have somebody to ask questions about music. Because you\nsee there's music and then there's the business.\n\nAnd what happened is that they suffer because they get nothing about the\nbusiness, and so they run into music, and they get very short life because the\nsuccess is dependent upon exploitation. And when the people feel that they've\nexploited them enough, then they lose interest and they just sort of fade from\nthe scenery.\n\nThe reason that I mention that is that we had a group come in named Dru Hill,\nand they made some recordings on Motown, and made some money, and then all of a\nsudden they disappeared.\n\nBAKER: I don't hear much about that band.\n\nSTONE: Gone man. Disappeared. And one guy that they had, he went out on his own.\n\nBAKER: The lead singer [Sisqo].\n\nSTONE: The Thong Song. He got a bad image. So he's trying to revive his image\nand that kind of thing. It's sad that music as such is not looked upon as a\nmoney-making enterprise. See, young people have changed. They are possessed for\nmoney. Success is equated with money.\n\nYou ask them how many records they sold. They don't know. They don't care. I\nmade fivemillion last year. That's the point. It's all money, all financial. And\nsomehow they disconnect from their fields. They don't look back and think about\nhelping the people who helped them.\n\nSCHAAF: Well, there are some exceptions. I mean, Dontae Winslow has stayed close\nto the community, and he's still living on Park Avenue and very conscious of the\nyoung ones behind him, even though he's very, very young himself. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=180.0,360.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So there are\nsome young ones there that are looking back at the younger ones in the community.\n\nBAKER: Well, where's Dontae studying at now?\n\nSCHAAF: Well, he's finished up his master's degree at Peabody, and he's\nrecording and doing a lot of playing, but very concerned about staying attached\nto the community.\n\nBAKER: He was the one that was at that concert where we were. Yeah.\n\nSTONE: Now, like you say they are the exceptions. The ones who have been, let's\nput it right down here, they are doing a great job themselves, but this is what\nI was talking about: I had a\n\nlittle saxophone player named Antonio Parker. And there's a little saxophonist\nin the School of the Arts named Antonio Hart. And he's not recording.\n\nBAKER: Antonio Hart?\n\nSTONE: Hart. Now Antonio Hart was working in Washington. This guy came to Howard\nand sat in my class, and he went through all of the drills and improvisations\nand the pieces that my students were doing. Now here's a guy who finished\nBerklee [School of Music], and I was fascinated that he found a challenge in my\nclass. Now what happened is that Antonio Hart is very successful in New York. He\ntook Jimmy Heath's job up at Queens College. Who from Baltimore has gone to\nQueens College?\n\nSee what I'm saying?\n\nBAKER: Yeah.\n\nSTONE: He's sort of like disconnected from Baltimore, and that's what happens to\ntoo many. And there's an impression out there that Baltimore is a place you\nleave. You don't stay here. You know, Gary Bartz came back here for a while. He\ngave up and went to New Jersey.\n\nBAKER: Took off.\n\nSTONE: Took off. And so Baltimore has become symbolic of a place to leave, not\nto stay, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=360.0,540.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and\n\nthat's really because the ones who are successful don't connect with their past\nexperiences and that is somehow disturbing. Well, I've been extremely lucky\nbecause almost everybody who was traveling on the road while I was at Howard\nwould come there. They'd come in to see me, and I had a fellow upstairs, and I\nwould send them upstairs because I thought maybe my classes were not as advanced\nenough to take their interest. They'd come back down from Houston, some from out\nof Chicago and Michigan. They're out on the road. They had passed a rule [at\nHoward University] that you don't have to go through channels, getting\npermission from a dean. So\n\nthey'd walk on in there and they would let you in. So that's what happened.\n\nI would say that I have been extremely fortunate. I have never, ever applied for\na job. \nSCHAAF: Well, I was just about to ask. We've got a little a gap here.\nWe've got you coming to\n\nBaltimore to go to Morgan, and meeting Mr. Baker. And then we have you at\nHoward. Now there must have been a couple of steps between.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah. He went to Douglass High School first of all.\n\nSTONE: Let me explain: After I graduated from Morgan, I went out to Cleveland. I\ngraduated in '52, went to Cleveland in '53. A gentleman back here named Robert\nSmith didn't like teaching elementary school. He wanted to teach the high school\nkids. And they had a teacher over at Dunbar who was an alcoholic, and had a\nproblem. So he got drunk, and they fired him. He [Smith] wanted to go there, and\nthe supervisor said look, I don't solve any problems by moving you to Dunbar. I\nhave five elementary schools with no teacher, and everybody else is not\nexperienced enough to handle ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=540.0,720.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"five elementary schools. He said but if you find me\nsomebody, I'll let you go to Dunbar.\n\nThis guy got in his car, drove all the way to Cleveland, and found me. I said\nlook, I'm not interested. He said, would I just come and take an interview. So I\ngot in the car and came back thinking I was coming to take an interview. He took\nme in and introduced me to Dr. Corwin Taylor. He said to me, can you play the\n\"Star Spangled Banner\" on the piano? Can you play \"Lift Every Voice and Sing\"?\nSo I played it and he said, now let me show you where the schools are.\n\nSo I said, listen man, I said, I didn't bring any clothes or nothing because I\nthought I was taking an interview and going back to Cleveland. So the next week\nI started in those five elementary schools. And that was the time that I got to\nmove in your mother's house. [Laughter]\n\nMr. Baker's mother -- traveling musicians who couldn't find accommodations would\ncome to Mr. Baker's mother's house. And the word was out. Say, well look man,\nwhen you get downthere, go see Henry Baker 'cause he'll get you a place to stay.\nSo, drummer Charlie Purcells stayed there.\n\nBAKER: Oh everybody.\n\nSTONE: Richard Davis, the bass player.\n\nBAKER: Lester [Young] stayed up there.\n\nSTONE: Oh yeah. All up there. Now I'm seeing these guys every day, but I'm\nteaching, so I stayed ten years in elementary schools in Baltimore City. Then\nall of a sudden a gentleman from Morgan went up to Delaware State to become\npresident, and his department head quit over the summer. So he came down to\nMorgan and asked Dr. Strider to recommend somebody.\n\nSCHAAF: Is that how you got the tire tracks on your lawn?\n\nSTONE: Yup. [laughter] So he said, well look, come and consult. He said, okay,\nwhat would you want for a day to come up, assess my situation, and tell me what\nI need to do. So I went up and talked about the instrument package and the\nuniforms, etc. He said, well, would you come up here if I paid you ten thousand\ndollars more than you're making in Baltimore City ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=720.0,900.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and give you all of this? I\nsaid when do I start? [Laughter] So I went on up there.\n\nBAKER: When do I start?\n\nSTONE: And stayed ten years. Okay.\n\nBAKER: Damn. You stayed up there that long?\n\nSTONE: Yeah. After that, I got a fellowship to work on my dissertation, and that\nwas in 1970 when I was starting to work on that. Tom DeLaine at Douglass High\nSchool had a hernia and had to be operated on. They said, well, just substitute.\nYou know, you can come in in the morning and stay until eleven o'clock, and then\nyou can go on down to Catholic U and do your work. So that was the agreement.\n\nAnd then I produced groups that year, and the principal was so satisfied that\nwhen Tom DeLaine decided to come back to work, the principal said, well, DeLaine\ncan't come back in unless I have them both. So they said, well, okay, you can\nhave both. So that's how I got up to Douglass, and I stayed there ten years.\n\nI was down in Washington backstage talking to some guys, and Art Dawkins came up\nand said, man, you know I'm glad to meet you 'cause I heard you went up to the\nEastman School to arrangers' workshops there. Yeah. He said well look, how would\nyou like to make a little extra money. I said what do you mean? He said teach\narranging at Howard.\n\nOh that was made to order! Go down two days a week. Class starts at four o'clock\nand be there for two hours. And so I started part-time there, and I was as happy\nas I could be. Then all of a sudden the Dean told me I should think about coming\nfull time, and he runs me through a tenure committee, and I had tenure and no\ncontract. So I dickered with them over the money. In August I went down to talk\nabout the money, and they put me on a computerized -- the scale was\ncomputerized. So they moved me up to the next level, and so I ended up making\nmore money than I had been asking for. And I stayed there thirteen years and\ncalled it a day. Quit, retired.\n\nBut I've had grand experiences because I've had students from elementary through\nthe university. And I had the opportunity ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=900.0,1080.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to tour Japan with the jazz ensemble.\nAnd that was some experience because I didn't know this, but a young man was in\nthe audience at Eastman when I\n\nwas up there at the arranger's workshop. And what happened was that they had a\ndance group from Rochester program, and they came in with their music. It was a\ntape, and on the tape it was a church service, and an organist, and it had a\nplace where he just played the pedals. You know, showing off with all the hand\nclapping and the other stuff to go with it. That guy ran it past all of his\narrangers. And then he told me that I was going to do it.\n\nOkay. So I did my arrangement, and when it came to the part with the pedals, I\ndidn't do\n\nanything. Just let that cut through, and they're all standing around saying why\ndidn't I think of that? The Eastman School was a great experience for me because\nI had the opportunity to meet two people who were at the top of the ladder:\nRayburn Wright, who was a conductor and the head of the program up there at\nEastman -- he was a genius. He had a photographic memory. And Matty Album was\ntops in recording. So I have the opportunity to experience both of these people\nat one time.\n\nAnd so I basically, they fired me up to the extent that I went back and took\nfilm scoring from them. I met a lot of people there who are very influential\noverseas in other countries. A lot of the students there came from other\ncountries because the governments got behind them and supported them. It's very\nexpensive, you know. That's why on my resume I say post-doctoral training. I did\nit up there.\n\nI've always been a workaholic.\n\nBAKER: Well, you ain't now [Laughter] Do nothing now!\n\nSTONE: I take a nap. Stop smiling. That's my wife. [Laughter] She's always\ntrying to get me up and out. But I didn't feel right, just to go to school and\nteach like most people. I had to do something for myself musically after that\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=1080.0,1260.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"day was done. So I've been extremely fortunate in my career\n\nSCHAAF: Well, you played with an awful lot of good people.\n\nBAKER: Oh yeah.\n\nSTONE: And their friendship.\n\nBAKER: Association. Yeah.\n\nSTONE: Now that I look at, I was looking at a video on BET of Frank Foster with\nthe Basie Band accompanying this singer, a blind singer, jazz singer from out on\nthe west coast. Anyway, I'm looking and I say, oh yeah, Melvin Wanzo.\n\nBAKER: Who? Wanzo.\n\nSTONE: We used to hang out with him right up there by your place.\n\nBAKER: Yeah. Yeah. He used to work with the Basie band. And Curtis Fuller.\n\nSTONE: Fuller was sitting up in there. And I'm saying, these are not\nacquaintances. These are buddies! And it's really interesting. When you're doing\nthese things you don't think about them.\n\nBAKER: Nah.\n\nSTONE: And it's only looking back, and my mother used to say hindsight's 20-20.\nYou can see it much better looking back than when you're going through it.\n\nSCHAAF: Well, if both of you had advice for young musicians, what would you tell them?\n\nSTONE: They have moved into a visual age. We talk about people coming out for\nmusic. They don't come out for music. We have two things that are influencing\nour culture: Alvin Toffler who wrote about throwaway culture -- you know, you go\nto McDonald's, you buy a meal, throw everything away. But we aim to throw away\npeople. We moved to a level where we have throw away people. You can be riding\nthe highway, nobody hear will from you after the night. Just like you're gone\nforever. So you have to take into consideration that you are in a throwaway\nculture and that success today does not guarantee success tomorrow. Change is inevitable.\n\nThe next think I would say to them is that there's music as an art, and there's\nmusic as a business. And you should not confuse the two. A lot of people confuse\nthe art of music ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=1260.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with the business of music, and they're not focused enough on\none, and they try to be successful at both. And it usually doesn't work out.\n\nSo I would advise them not only that, but to stay on top of innovation because\ninnovations are great, but they brought along a new coded language. You follow\nme? So if you're not computer literate, people will talk. Now wait a minute, the\nguy's in Hollywood doing movies. They're doing it with a keyboard on a computer!\nYou know what I mean? So if they don't get on top of\n\nthe innovations as they come, they'll just be left behind. And not only that,\nbut your audience -- you can't think of your audience as some people sitting in\nfront of you listening. The world will be listening. And that's what the\ntwenty-first century is going to be all about.\n\nI'm looking at -- say a guy from Motown. I don't see anybody else in the\nrecording business coming up to the level of Motown. what has happened is that\nMotown has not moved to the visual age, because the people who are selling are\nthe people who are doing videos. The reason it hurts me is that all this starts\nwith a guy that they don't like. It all started with James Brown.\n\nJames Brown -- the master. He's a genius. He could synthesize music, dance and\nwords. And you know at his band rehearsal he'd say, saxophone play, [Mr. Stone\nhums]. He'd say all right brass you come in like this [Mr. Stone hums some\nnotes]. And they're looking at each other -- what is this? And all of a sudden\nhe says, \"I feel good \" [Mr. Stone hums some notes]. He's dancing, singing and\nhas the music all together.\n\nNow it took a real great mind to do that and ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=1440.0,1620.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we haven't been able to turn back\nsince. So this is why now you can't walk out there like Sarah Vaughn or Ella\nFitzgerald and sing. You've got to say, well, what's my background going to be?\nGot to have background singers.\n\nSCHAAF: Do the choreography.\n\nSTONE: Right. Not only that, but the concept has changed. For instance, Barry\nHarris was standing up there with me at Howard. One of the students came by and\nsaid, I haven't seen you here before. He said, no, I'm just here today for a\nprogram. He said, oh yeah. He said, well, whatinstrument do you play? Barry\nHarris says I'm a pianist. He said, oh you mean you play keyboard. [Laughter]\nThey can't see his head on tape, but what happens is a keyboard player plays\nwith both hands parallel. Today it's one above the other. You follow me?\n\nAnd a bass is no longer upright, but it's across. See? And if you don't play\nbass, guitar and keyboard, you're a horn player. They don't even know the\ndifference between a saxophone and a trumpet. Why? Because they're going to a\nrap session and all the man has to do is hit a trumpet button, and play it on a\nkeyboard. And they say, yeah, got a trumpet section.\n\nBAKER: And you go it.\n\nSTONE: So the virtual reality is what America is tuned in on more so than the\nreality. And that's why they can create things now in a sound studio that you\ncan't do live, and the craving of the America public is for the virtual and not\nthe real. And it's hard to get a lot of young people to understand that they\nhave made that transition from the virtual to the real.\n\nSCHAAF: They're inventing new instruments to play on.\n\nBAKER: Right.\n\nSCHAAF: And, you know, the technology is changing so fast, and the possibilities.\n\nBAKER: And it takes so long to learn the other way.\n\nSTONE: Right. [Laughter]\n\nBAKER: So long.\n\nSTONE: Now I have a twenty month old grandson who can go to the computer that is\nplugged into the TV. Turn it on. He said, look pigs! pigs!! pigs!!! He went to\nthe State Fair. Okay. Twenty\n\nmonths old. It reflects technological change. Now what are you going to do when\nhe's fifteen? ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=1620.0,1800.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[Laughter]\n\nSCHAAF: I just can't imagine. It's changed so much.\n\nBAKER: Yeah, and it's constantly changing. You know what I mean?\n\nSTONE: Not only that, but more and more music is seen as an adjunct to something\n-- a movie or a documentary or a commercial or so forth. And what happens is a\nlot of the older artists arebeing put behind commercials, but the public doesn't\neven know who it is.\nFor instance, [Jeep] Cherokee. They had a commercial. Coltrane’s playing. The public heard of Coltrane? They don’t know Coltrane. And this is one of the things that’s sad. I feel that music education failed the students, and we’re in a mode now where all artists are cut financially. The bottom line is to make money, and what they will do is cater to the greatest group, which is usually the youth. Because of this, you’re going to find that we’re going to have to get our young people to think beyond being just musicians.\n\nAnd schools sort of psych them out. For instance, when they go to a place, say like Peabody,\nthat’s performance oriented. Well if you go and stay there four years and you get credentials, and you come out and some guy who left high school with you has got six albums in the rack. Yeah. [Laughter] You know what I’m saying. Six albums in the rack. And you spent four years to get certified as a performer. Then, when you go out there, you meet this guy with the six albums and say, hey man, could you use me? He said, man, you don’t play the right stuff. He’s into what the guy on the street is listening to.\n\nBAKER: Different ballgame.\n\nSTONE: People have to rethink. And part of that is, I hate to say it, a reflection of the way we train people. For instance, the CEO. You know, they used to have superintendents of schools. Now they are CEOs. And what this says ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=1800.0,1980.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"is that as a CEO, I don’t have to know anything about education. I am here to supervise the people who do know. But the point is, if you don’t surround yourself with really good people, you don’t do anything. Look at the White House! Look at our President! He’s surrounded himself with what he thought was the best. I mean, what is the problem? Not those people. The President. Because he’s not experienced in politics or in the\nmilitary or any of that. He doesn’t know what’s going on. And so Colin Powell will set up something, and he comes along and blows that up, and it goes sour.\n\nThe same way with the business of corporate theft. They didn’t really try to solve it, just get the guys off the hook. This is going to cause us to re-think the whole educational program and what are we preparing these people to do. Are we preparing them to function in something that is obsolete or are we going to move ahead in our thinking to try to get them into the information age? Because that’s what it will be.\n\nBut you see, Mr. Baker thought he was going ahead of his time. Now Mr. Baker up there has a shop — Braiding is in! [Laughter]\n\nBAKER: It’s like anything else. You develop a certain amount of knowhow, and just like you had the knowhow in the musical field, you get it in another field.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: And your mind tells you to hire that band. Your mind will tell you how you want that other thing you’re into. You see things before other people see them.\n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: Now sometimes you see something wrong. But you can make a hasty adjustment. \n\nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: Because it’s dollars and cents. It’s like when I put an ad on the radio and I don’t get no response, the next day, I change that ad. Or change that radio station. Something’s wrong. And that’s the way you have to go. And everything is done in a hurry.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=1980.0,2160.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I never dreamed I’d be in the hair business.\n\nSTONE: Right. This bag that you see him carrying is what I call my brag bag. This was given to me by two students I taught at Douglass High School who went down to Atlanta to a meeting of 100 Black Men of America. And they said let’s do something for Doc. So they brought me back this leather case, and in this case are, I keep the things that I consider very important for me and for my family.\n\nI’ll start with this, and I’ll read it. It reads: City of Baltimore Citizen Citation to Reppard Stone, Ph.D. Marvin O’Malley, Mayor of the City of Baltimore, do hereby confer upon you this citation in recognition of your being a living legend not to be forgotten. Best wishes. That was signed on February the 20th by Martin O’Malley who is our current mayor.\n\nLast year I received this plaque from the Musicians Union. \n\nBAKER: 44-543.\n\nSTONE: \"2001. The Musicians Association of Metropolitan Baltimore Local 44 and 543 AFM is proud to honor Reppard Stone in recognition of lifetime achievement in the music profession.\" And the reason this is important is that this is outside of education. It did not say education. It said in the music profession. That is rather dear. And this is the next thing I’d like to brag about: This is a jazz educators’ journal, and this particular issue it has a lady on the cover.\n\nBAKER: Mary Lou.\n\nSTONE: Mary Lou Williams. Now, that is important to me. But in here they have a listing of all of the research papers that were done and delivered at conventions and published in journals. So I brought along one research journal just so you could see how the different authors ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=2160.0,2340.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"put this into the journal. I want to give you a list of those papers so you could see, or that maybe those journals could appear at the Peabody library.\n\nIn volume 4 I did Voicing Chords by Acoustics: The Concept of Maury Deutsch. Volume 6, The Final appearance of Philly Joe Jones in Washington, D.C. 1985. Volume 8, The Harmonic\nSymmetry in John Coltrane’s \"Giant Steps\". Volume 9, The Peregrinations of Slonimsky’s Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns. 10, Joseph Schillinger, Educator and Visionary, Number 13, Identity, Origin, Definition and Application in Orchestration and Arranging. And, of course, 15 is Proximal tension created in the compositions of Thad Jones Through Voicing\nChords by Acoustics. And the last one I did, in Volume 21, in 2001 is The Enigma of Duke Ellington, An Examination. He’s still a puzzle to us.\n\nBAKER: Oh yes.\n\nSTONE: And I thought that I’d recite that so it would be on record.\n\nSCHAAF: Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, I would like to thank both of you for taking so much time out of your schedules to do this. It’s been an honor for us to be able to have you speak and I thank you very, very much.\n\nYou know, I have Roy McCoy’s photo album, which he gave to the Archives. And this is one of the photographs that is partly unidentified, and can you recognize any of those faces? [Baker and Stone examine photographs.]\n\nBAKER: Jake is a drummer, right? Glenn is a saxophone player. These are all the old 543 members.\n\nSTONE: This is —The intellectuals and professionals and so forth of Baltimore organized a club called the Sphinx Club. Charlie Tilman had it up on Pennsylvania Avenue.\n\nBAKER: Pennsylvania Avenue. Yeah.\n\nSTONE: And they have put together a volume on the Sphinx Club because the club burned down about two years ago. I thought maybe you should take a copy.\n\nSCHAAF: Oh thank you very much.\n\nSTONE: And in your time, especially when it comes to certain photographs, note who these people are. For instance, here’s Harry Cole as a senator.\n\nBake: Yeah, he was the first black senator. \nSTONE: Right.\n\nBAKER: First Black Senator from Baltimore. He was a Republican.\n\nSTONE: And you will see there are the movers and shakers in the black community were in there. Eventually the club went public. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=2340.0,2520.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"At first it was private, but anybody could walk in toward the end.\n\nSCHAAF: You mentioned Stanley Johnson.\n\nSTONE: Trumpet player.\n\nSCHAAF: Is he still living?\n\nBAKER: To the best of our knowledge.\n\nSCHAAF: He apparently is not in the current union listing.\n\nSTONE: Oh no. He hasn’t been in the union in a long time. He lives out there past Randallstown. I don’t know. Did he have a stroke?\n\nBAKER: Yeah. He had a stroke. Last time I saw him he seemed to be getting along pretty good. I’ve seen his wife a couple of times, and she says he’s getting along pretty good.\n\nSTONE: Now last time I saw him was at Tango’s funeral [Roy McCoy]. \n\nBAKER: That’s a long time ago.\n\nSTONE: That’s a long time ago.\n\nBAKER: At the funeral, Tango’s funeral.\n\nSCHAAF: That was like a reunion Simply amazing.\n\nSTONE: Yeah. He was the top of the line around here. \n\nBAKER: He was.\n\nSTONE: Cannonball Adderley told me how he used to get on him when he was down in the Army band, down at Fort Knox. He said, man, you back there sounding like Miles Davis. They wanted him to play real high, you know, like his brother Nat played. But he hung in there and he got out of there.\n\nWe had, in that group, our generation, we had a drummer named Donald Lee. He was quite a drummer. He was on the top of a lot of the things.\n\nBAKER: He was a good little drummer. \n\nSTONE: The later innovations, you know.\n\nSCHAAF: There was someone named Flink Johnson.\n\nSTONE: He was at the Avenue Bar, and he had a lot of these younger musicians working for him. Interesting guy. Cause we’d be standing on the corner down there by Baker’s place, he’d come down and say, \"hey Jim, I’m a man today.\" He was a homosexual.\n\nBAKER: Flink was something else brother.\n\nSTONE: Flink was something else. He’d come down, hey Jim, I’m a man today. And we would crack up. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=2520.0,2700.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/transcript/35121/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We’d laugh tears.\n\nSCHAAF: And Claudie Hubbard is still around. \n\nSTONE: Yeah. He’s still around.\n\nSCHAAF: And still in the union book. And let’s see.\n\nBAKER: I don’t know, but I think this is a picture of me. [Laughter and cross talk as they look at a photograph] I think this is me. Oh boy, I remember we had a meeting. I don’t know. That might not be me though. I don’t remember taking. But that is me. Yeah. [Laughter] Yeah, that’s me.\n\nSTONE: See. No one would have known.\n\nBAKER: I remember this picture. It was a meeting. I had the clothing store at the time. But I just don’t remember Harry Cole being in it. But I know that’s me, because I got on a striped tie.\n\n[END OF INTERVIEW]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=2700.0,2880.0"}]},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Henry Baker and Reppard Stone oral history, 2002 August 20 07-26-2022 15:05 [Index]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Demand for Jazz outside the US / Disconnect from Baltimore","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=0.0,662.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker and Stone discuss the greater demand for jazz artists outside of the country. They also discuss how many musicians these days have become disconnected from their roots in Baltimore. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=0.0,662.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Stone's career path","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=662.0,1347.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Stone describes his career path in teaching after graduating from Morgan. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=662.0,1347.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"STONE: Let me explain: After I graduated from Morgan, I went out to Cleveland. I graduated in '52, went to Cleveland in '53.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=662.0,1347.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Advice to young musicians / Music in age of technology ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=1347.0,2167.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Baker and Stone discuss how the music culture has changed and is always changing and offer their advice to young musicians. Baker and Stone also discuss how quickly technology changes and how that has been affecting the business aspects of music. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=1347.0,2167.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SCHAAF: Well, if both of you had advice for young musicians, what would you tell them?","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=1347.0,2167.0"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Stone's \"brag bag\" / Identifying photographs","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Title"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=2167.0,2773.02857"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Stone reads out some of his prized documents, items, and awards he keeps in his leather case. Stone and Baker also assist Schaaf in identifying figures in photographs and reflect on stories about the people in the photographs. ","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Synopsis"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=2167.0,2773.02857"},{"id":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374/index/51795/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"supplementing","body":[{"type":"TextualBody","value":"STONE: Right. This bag that you see him carrying is what I call my brag bag.","format":"text/plain","label":{"en":["Partial Transcript"]}}],"target":"https://streaming.peabody.jhu.edu/collections/1178/collection_resources/44110/file/117374#t=2167.0,2773.02857"}]}]}]}